Shoot to kill? Your opinions on self defense...

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I have to laugh when people talk about ethics and life or death self defense situations. My personal opinion is that when your life is on the line, there is no civilized society. The other person is not asking for my Grey Poupon. Things have reverted back to the laws of the jungle. Either you remain as a live actor in the jungle or you are scrap for the vultures. The concept of "ethics" going right out the proverbial window
 
My definition of Ethics; real ethics, not "situational ethics" is:

ETHICS IS; REASON AND HONEST CONTEMPLATION OF OPTIMUM SURVIVAL NOW AND IN THE FUTURE ACCORDING TO THE GREATEST GOOD FOR THE GREATEST PART OF ONE'S PERSONAL SPHERE OF INFLUENCE AND INTERACTION.

Failure to STOP such a criminal violates everyone's Future, and the Greatest Part of one's sphere. In other words the only good that occurs by NOT stopping a bad guy is that it's good for the bad guy and his fellow criminals --- but bad for the victim and sets up future victims.

So, failure to stop the BG also makes one responsible, not only for the people being hurt now, in your home, but all the future people the BG hurts, kills, rapes, maims, blinds, mentally destroys or cripples in any manner. So, by this reaoning if you FAIL TO STOP you are unethical....
 
Some really thoughtful posts, above.

I'll offer one more comment about the moral issue as I've thought about it, dealing with "killing another human being".

I have come to the conclusion that any person who offers gratuitous deadly threat to an innocent is then denying his own humanity. I have "brainwashed" myself, rationalized, that I would not then really be dealing with "another human being". This may sound harsh or "cold", but I'd have no compunction against stepping on a cockroach.

I've never had to try to use this rationalization. I hope I never have to. But, where is it written that any Bad Guy has a "right" to impose post-traumatic stress upon me? Reality exists whether I like it or not, and I have as much right to prepare my mind as to aftermath as to prepare via training for the event itself.

Art
 
Art,

My internal programming is somewhat similar. I believe all people have the inherent right to live unmolested. When my freedom or safety is infringed upon, I know the threatening party has given up his right to live. I do not deny his humanity, but acknowledge sorrow that he has sought his own destruction.
 
Previous posters have covered this well so I'll just point out that according to Exodus 20:13, the sixth commandment says "thou shalt do no murder." Taking another life in defense of your own isn't a problem in my book. I know a minister who carries a gun for self defense and his favorite line when asked about how a man of God could take a life is "I carry a bible for those who believe in the Lord and a gun for those who don't!" Good luck but if you aren't 100% committed, both physically and mentally, don't carry.
 
The "Should I shoot only to wound?", is absolutely NOT an option. That "shooting the gun out of their hand," or "shooting them in the shoulder/leg" is nothing more than Hollywood movie/teeeeveeee bull feces!!!!!!!

In a self defense situation, it's difficult enough to hit center-of-mass, much less a tiny portion of shoulder or leg or toe. Plus, bullets often do very strange things whem they hit human flesh, muscle, bones and blood. I've seen many bullet wounds at many different angles, and that bullet that hit someone in the shoulder (unintentionally), might well have ended up down in the heart, etc., etc., etc., etc. Believe me, it happens.

If you've made the decision to protect yourself and family against a deadly threat from some vicious puke, then CENTER-OF-MASS is the only way to go.

FWIW. J.B.
 
This is really pretty simple

This may open a whole can o' worms but a little late in my life to be shy...

first MYTH..Thou Shalt Not Kill...never was part of the Big 10...incorrectly interpreted before the Rosetta Stone was discovered...proper interpretation was "Thou Shall Not MURDER"..if you look in the dictionary, murder is basically interpreted as taking the life of an innocent.

Oops, they're starting to howl....

Ok...the proof..first, read Exodus 20 (OK read the whole Bible front to back, cover to cover, and word for word like I have several times). What did Moses do AFTER getting the 10 Commandments??? They separated the believers from the non-believers and the Levites (for those who are not hard-core, they are God's "enforcers") hacked them to death with swords (after getting the commandments).

second...after getting to the Promised Land, the (now Hebrews, which means "he who crossed the river") took Jerico. God specifically commanded them to kill EVERYBODY...men, women, children, animals.

Do you think David had the least bit of remorse after killing Goliath?? Who do you think helped..I'm thinkin' the Big Guy was there too..How do you think the Jews got the incredible power and wealth they had (Solomon)??? Wasn't by going to the enemy and saying "Could I pretty please have your land and all your wealth?"

third...even (maybe) Jesus and for certain the disciples carried weapons. How do I know????...easy...read the Bible..when Jesus was taken in the Garden Peter cut off the Roman soldier's ear with a SWORD...OH GASP!!! HE HAS A WEAPON!!!

Oh, about that crap about the Old Testament changing after The Coming.."I came to fulfill the Law, not to change it"

Being a believer doesn't mean being a doormat. You can love someone and not give in to them. For example, you can very much love your children but still discipline them..same with the BG's. It's actually anti-biblical to not protect yourself and your family. Wimps and Wusses want to pick a single line and live their life around it. A Christain's duty is to repel evil.

Being a Christian means living your life in an expemplary fashion Monday thru Saturday, not just going to church on Sunday. If you profess to be a Christian, get a King James (which has a lot of incorrect translation) and a Strong's concordance...THEN read it ALL. Things start to become much clearer.

After the sermon...the alternative is non-lethal force, either martial arts or pepper spray. If you pull the trigger on someone, it changes your life for a long time, perhaps forever. You have to do whatever your can live with. Going into the "danger zone" here, but if your church teaches you to be a victim, I'd think real hard about where you're at.
 
I was taught that...

if circumstances dictate that you draw and have to shoot, shootto kill... (D.M.T.N.T.) Dead Men Tell NO Tales...

if I shoot, I'm going for the "two to the chest, and one tothe head" method...

NEVER "shoot to wound or disable"...
 
I would select A.

We always taught our SP's that if they needed to draw their weapons and shoot, make sure you shoot to kill. Why because when you go to court, if the BG walks down the asle with crutches or cast or anything like that, they have won the hearts for the jury.

Second, for the moral question the Book actually reads, Thou shall not MURDER.

my $.02
 
"Being a believer doesn't mean being a doormat. " Amen.

When I said NEVER shoot to kill, shoot to STOP the danger to you or yours. I did so with defense in criminal or civil court in mind. If you do not use the term "shoot to kill" before or after the incident, the opposition can not use it against you. Neither should you shoot to wound or maim. As one defending oneself, you have a duty to shoot to stop. And you shoot untill they are truly stopped.

The military have license to shoot to kill. The armed citizen does not have that freedom. A prompt and proper stopping will often result in rather rapid death of the one stopped. So be it.

Tis a play on words, but the litiginous ones earn their keep by playing on words. Just don't let your own words cost you your freedom and fortune.

Sam
 
My wife and I had a similar discussion not long ago...she is new to the shooting world and initially was afraid to even touch a firearm...she then got bitten by the bug and had to have her OWN firearm...I travel for work so this was good news! she could protect herself while i'm gone...she asked if just "shooting a BG in the leg" would be enough to send them away...I told her if someone was taking the time and effort to break into our home...they get what they deserve...2-3 shots to the center of mass (if possible) and then if the BG can still run away...great...if BG continues forward...2-3 more shots to center of mass...once the threat is over by either the BG running away...or no movement...call 911...end of story. She now practices with me on a regular basis with torso shots on her targets...and I would HATE to be the BG who picks our house! she shoots the black out of her targets now!
Tony.
 
Thou shall not MURDER (it doesn't say KILL)

Redneck2 - You explained that in a much more educated manner than this uncouth country boy could have. Bravo!

DPSproles - You are thinking about this, contemplating this, which makes you a better person and better prepared for it. Prior planning and preperation prevents piss poor performance. There is a story that goes something like this... (dang, I wish my book was here at work rather than at home so I could do this story justice)


In Japan, there was once a Master Swordsman who taught many of the Emperor's bodyguards. As he was looking over his newest batch of students, one in particular caught his attention. The master asked the student to come to him.

The master asked, "Why are you here? I can see by your confidence and demeanor that you are already a master of the sword."

"No," said the student, "I confess that I have had no formal teaching in the way of the sword."

"Surely," said the master, "this cannot be true, for I have seen many master swordsmen, and you truely act and appear as they do."

"No," relented the student, "I have had no such training."

"Well then, you truely must be a master of some sort. Please explain," requested the master.

"Perhaps the only thing I can say that I am a master of is my death," explained the student. "From the time I was a small boy, I wrestled with the idea of death. I came to the conclusion that no matter what happened, I would strive to never fear death. Eventually, after many years of contemplation, the fear of death was gone, holding nothing over me, and encouraging not one negative thought."

"Be gone," commanded the master, "for there is nothing more I can teach you."


This story is great for so many reasons, but especially for the fact that it reinforces that the proper mindset is more important that particular tools or techniques (not that tools and techniques aren't important, just less so than mindset).

I've thought about how I would deal with violence thrust upon me, I've contemplated different scenarios, and I believe I am better armed/prepared for it. My primary weapon is my mind, and I intend to utilize it to the fullest in order to better guarantee my continued safety.
 
Ben....it took me a couple of trys to get it transfered from mind to forum.:)

Country Boy.....I agree, the mind is our greatest weapon, or it can cause us great harm. It is up to us how we use it.

Sam
 
>C. Draw your weapon and inform him of your intent?

This option is only for LEOs. As a citizen carrying a weapon, drawing and firing to stop should be a "sucker punch". The BG should never see it coming.
 
The correct "Legal" response to the question is to shoot " to stop the attackers aggression" which in reality translates to "shoot to kill" as in center of mass.

If you try any of that fancy "try to disable someone", you will either end up dead or sued until you thought you were dead.

You never present your weapon unless you are ready to take someones life, you never use it to intimidate. That being said, if you present the weapon and the attacker runs off, good, you don't have to shoot them .

No normal person hopes he/she will get to use their gun on someone. I know I pray I never have to use mine :)
 
I agree with several other posters, shoot to stop the threat. If the bad guy dies as a result, it is his fault. Do I want him to die? Roger that! If he is dead, he can't hurt me or my family. A man cannot die fast enough when he has a gun pointed at me.
As far as the religious issue goes, look at Ecclesiastes 3:1-3.
 
Greetings to all on TFL board:

The subject raised is something that made a CCW holder will think very well when to really used his FA.

On my many encounter of BG's as you have experienced it too, I had my FA drawn many times but then I did not fire it for the problem is always resolve without shooting. In our asian character, there is the saying that, don't draw your gun if you don't fire it to where it is intended, but then there were many instances that it is not necessary if the threat won't also in the state of using deadly force.

Also, how many times, I had premeditated to kill someone (who had caused wrong to me) but then I was not able to consumate the action I am planning to do, for if a person is not really a born criminal or killer and there is no instant root caused where it applies the used of gun, then I think it would be hard to shoot someone.

In my country also, many CCW holders who were hot headed and have use their Fire Arms in several simple altercations, then they end up to legal litigation, if not death.

A well mannered familied man and self-controlled CCW holders may perhaps only use his gun to shoot a BG if there is no more room to escape the trouble and his life is really at stake, but then after the incident we still need to prove beyond reasonable doubt because the BG's has also human rights. But it is better to live rather then being dead.

That is just my personal opinion.

Thanks
 
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