Glenn E. Meyer
New member
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[This message has been edited by Glenn E. Meyer (edited July 26, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Glenn E. Meyer (edited July 26, 2000).]
Shoot to Kill part II
- Thread starter Sprig
- Start date
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rich Lucibella:
Administrative Note:
Sprig-
Received your email request for info. Unfortunately, your email addy is bad. Please correct it and let me know.
rluci@ix.netcom.com
Rich[/quote]
What??? I emailed you! How can the address I emailed FROM be bad? Can't you hit "reply"?
Both the email addy in outlook and in my profile here on TFL are correct.
My email addy isn't a secret, I mean, people have been able to determine my email from my web site.
Internet glitch? Or are those MIB really attacking my internet connection?
Sprig
Administrative Note:
Sprig-
Received your email request for info. Unfortunately, your email addy is bad. Please correct it and let me know.
rluci@ix.netcom.com
Rich[/quote]
What??? I emailed you! How can the address I emailed FROM be bad? Can't you hit "reply"?
Both the email addy in outlook and in my profile here on TFL are correct.
My email addy isn't a secret, I mean, people have been able to determine my email from my web site.
Internet glitch? Or are those MIB really attacking my internet connection?
Sprig
The analogy:
In my example the guy on the street perceives the driver as committing a crime. He observes him driving too fast, towards him. It takes not much to interpret that as a "lethal attack" (driving too fast is a crime, driving somebody over is a lethal attack).
It is exactly the same scenario as the rape thing in terms of logical conditions. The father enters the room, perceives the rapist as committing a crime. He observes him harming his daughter. It takes not much to interpret that as a "lethal attack" (raping is a crime, turning around and marching towards the father might well be a lethal attack).
The point is, that in both cases ALL the "judgement" is done by one person, a person who, given the short time and the circumstances is almost certainly not capable of neutral logical judgement. These are examples to demonstrate points, they are not real situations. Quite obviously there is always room to twist them, but that's not the point.
To the "broke my law" guy:
Your law does neither count nor matter. You are citizen of the United States of America, thus bound by the rules, laws and principles of same country. If you decide that you don't like them then you have three options:
a) vote against them and accept if you are beaten by the opposition.
b) leave the country and go to a place with rules that you like more
c) break them and be punished for it
Those are your choice, there are no other ones. And executing somebody is a case of c)
To the "my neighbour got shot":
That's a terrible thing. Yet, I would encourage you to put your faith into the system. If the steps taken by the legal system do not satisfy you, then feel free to vote for a party that tries to change the legal system. That is your duty and option as citizen. It is NOT your option to by pass the legal system. Doing so will simply make you a criminal as well.
One of the standing stones of the US is the right for equal treatment. that is, the guy who killed your neighbour has a right to be treated just like a guy in the other corner of the US committing a similar murder. And granting everybody this right requires that the judgement is made by people who are aware of the options for punishment. Otherwise you might judge and kill the guy, while the other fellow miles away gets a big handshake from the town because everybody in it thinks that is was a "cool" kill (stupid example, but you get the idea).
Finally to all the folks who see this as the only alternative:
My lady just came back from Haiti a few weeks ago. She goes down there all the time and each time I live in fear for a while. Haiti is likely the worst place to be in north america. Exploided first by the europeans, then by the americans, then dropped in the garbage bin. The country is the poorest on the continent, every 7th person has HIV positive and the only export produce they have nowadays is drugs. The government is dictatorial, the social system (including health, welfare, education and law) is non existent. People live in "clans", protecting each other. Lynch justice is common as sand on the beach. Seldom a night goes by without gunshots being heard. People raid, steal and kill during the day in the middle of the crowd. In the night only private militia groups keep a few parts of the country quiet. Each time I go there I feel like stepping into a big nightmare. Yet, my lady goes all the time, every few month she spends several weeks down there. Doing political work, radio speeches about democracy, about birth control, about health issues, setting up shelter for the homeless, teaching the kids in the villages how to read and write, etc. During the last years she has been kidnapped twice, robbed more often then she can count, shot at from afar, her uncle has been executed by militia (Jean Dominique, he was the foremost public speaker for democratic elections on haiti, there are still a few articles about it out there on the web), her aunt has been raped and then killed a few years ago. Friends of hers are constantly being attacked. She doesn't carry a weapon, she actually refuses to have any protection from weapons, bodyguards and clan militia. The first time we went together I was terrified, I called her insane, asked her, begged, that she would never go again, or at least surround herself with all kinds of bodyguards. Back then she told me that she could easily do that. But that it wouldn't make her any better than all the others. she told me that she tries to set a little thing in motion with her work, but more important, she tries to demonstrate that there IS another way to live. A civilised way. Nowadays when she goes I am still afraid, but I know that she is setting a sign. There are several people like her out there. I met a lot of them once during a conference. They are a kind of modern missionary without religion (the church on haiti consists of a few poor priests in the countryside with no support whatsoever and a big fat bishop sitting in a huge palace like village surrounded with one of the largest militia groups on the island). And slowly, ever so slowly, small things are moving on haiti.
There IS another way, a way that demonstrates that we are more than just brutal animals.
cheers
Helge
In my example the guy on the street perceives the driver as committing a crime. He observes him driving too fast, towards him. It takes not much to interpret that as a "lethal attack" (driving too fast is a crime, driving somebody over is a lethal attack).
It is exactly the same scenario as the rape thing in terms of logical conditions. The father enters the room, perceives the rapist as committing a crime. He observes him harming his daughter. It takes not much to interpret that as a "lethal attack" (raping is a crime, turning around and marching towards the father might well be a lethal attack).
The point is, that in both cases ALL the "judgement" is done by one person, a person who, given the short time and the circumstances is almost certainly not capable of neutral logical judgement. These are examples to demonstrate points, they are not real situations. Quite obviously there is always room to twist them, but that's not the point.
To the "broke my law" guy:
Your law does neither count nor matter. You are citizen of the United States of America, thus bound by the rules, laws and principles of same country. If you decide that you don't like them then you have three options:
a) vote against them and accept if you are beaten by the opposition.
b) leave the country and go to a place with rules that you like more
c) break them and be punished for it
Those are your choice, there are no other ones. And executing somebody is a case of c)
To the "my neighbour got shot":
That's a terrible thing. Yet, I would encourage you to put your faith into the system. If the steps taken by the legal system do not satisfy you, then feel free to vote for a party that tries to change the legal system. That is your duty and option as citizen. It is NOT your option to by pass the legal system. Doing so will simply make you a criminal as well.
One of the standing stones of the US is the right for equal treatment. that is, the guy who killed your neighbour has a right to be treated just like a guy in the other corner of the US committing a similar murder. And granting everybody this right requires that the judgement is made by people who are aware of the options for punishment. Otherwise you might judge and kill the guy, while the other fellow miles away gets a big handshake from the town because everybody in it thinks that is was a "cool" kill (stupid example, but you get the idea).
Finally to all the folks who see this as the only alternative:
My lady just came back from Haiti a few weeks ago. She goes down there all the time and each time I live in fear for a while. Haiti is likely the worst place to be in north america. Exploided first by the europeans, then by the americans, then dropped in the garbage bin. The country is the poorest on the continent, every 7th person has HIV positive and the only export produce they have nowadays is drugs. The government is dictatorial, the social system (including health, welfare, education and law) is non existent. People live in "clans", protecting each other. Lynch justice is common as sand on the beach. Seldom a night goes by without gunshots being heard. People raid, steal and kill during the day in the middle of the crowd. In the night only private militia groups keep a few parts of the country quiet. Each time I go there I feel like stepping into a big nightmare. Yet, my lady goes all the time, every few month she spends several weeks down there. Doing political work, radio speeches about democracy, about birth control, about health issues, setting up shelter for the homeless, teaching the kids in the villages how to read and write, etc. During the last years she has been kidnapped twice, robbed more often then she can count, shot at from afar, her uncle has been executed by militia (Jean Dominique, he was the foremost public speaker for democratic elections on haiti, there are still a few articles about it out there on the web), her aunt has been raped and then killed a few years ago. Friends of hers are constantly being attacked. She doesn't carry a weapon, she actually refuses to have any protection from weapons, bodyguards and clan militia. The first time we went together I was terrified, I called her insane, asked her, begged, that she would never go again, or at least surround herself with all kinds of bodyguards. Back then she told me that she could easily do that. But that it wouldn't make her any better than all the others. she told me that she tries to set a little thing in motion with her work, but more important, she tries to demonstrate that there IS another way to live. A civilised way. Nowadays when she goes I am still afraid, but I know that she is setting a sign. There are several people like her out there. I met a lot of them once during a conference. They are a kind of modern missionary without religion (the church on haiti consists of a few poor priests in the countryside with no support whatsoever and a big fat bishop sitting in a huge palace like village surrounded with one of the largest militia groups on the island). And slowly, ever so slowly, small things are moving on haiti.
There IS another way, a way that demonstrates that we are more than just brutal animals.
cheers
Helge
Gentlemen, I have read most of the posts on this subject and have only this to add.
If this scenario played out in the real world there would be no "I fired and he went down". There would be "I shot him 10 times with my .38 Super and then he fell down dead". No one is going to attack any of mine and survive, period end of story. No doubts, no afterthoughts and no remorse. And in East Texas no problem from the Sheriff, either.
1: If he is in your house, you can kill him. Period. No East coast "retreating" til you can't back up any more, no warnings, no nothing.
2: If it is after dark in Texas you and the law are to assume he is armed and you may use deadly force to prevent anything from bodily harm of you, yours or your neighbor, down to "vandalism" of your or your neighbor's PROPERTY. This may sound harsh to some but there is a war going on out in America and I intend to win all my personal battles.
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Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
[This message has been edited by TexasVet (edited July 25, 2000).]
If this scenario played out in the real world there would be no "I fired and he went down". There would be "I shot him 10 times with my .38 Super and then he fell down dead". No one is going to attack any of mine and survive, period end of story. No doubts, no afterthoughts and no remorse. And in East Texas no problem from the Sheriff, either.
1: If he is in your house, you can kill him. Period. No East coast "retreating" til you can't back up any more, no warnings, no nothing.
2: If it is after dark in Texas you and the law are to assume he is armed and you may use deadly force to prevent anything from bodily harm of you, yours or your neighbor, down to "vandalism" of your or your neighbor's PROPERTY. This may sound harsh to some but there is a war going on out in America and I intend to win all my personal battles.
------------------
Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
[This message has been edited by TexasVet (edited July 25, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TexasVet:
Gentlemen, I have read most of the posts on this subject and have only this to add.
If this scenario played out in the real world there would be no "I fired and he went down".
[/quote]
There is a reason for just one single intial shot. The perp is between you and your daughter. Rule #4, be aware of your target. Multiple shots place further risk of colateral damage while the perp is standing.
Sprig
Gentlemen, I have read most of the posts on this subject and have only this to add.
If this scenario played out in the real world there would be no "I fired and he went down".
[/quote]
There is a reason for just one single intial shot. The perp is between you and your daughter. Rule #4, be aware of your target. Multiple shots place further risk of colateral damage while the perp is standing.
Sprig
Sprig, There would be NO shots while he was between me and my daughter. That is what Rule 4 MEANS. But in a room, one foot of movement will eliminate that problem. Then everything else I said applies. IPSC shooting will teach you how shoot around hostages. And the real world will teach you that sometimes you even shoot through hostages if necessary to save their life.
------------------
Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
------------------
Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club
68-70
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Well said, TV.
OTOH, going to the knee and shooting up is another alternative, as is the "sidestep the rush and fire a warning shot to the pate".
Sprig-
When you use the icons to email TFL, it comes to me. And, yes, I learned to use the "reply" button about 4 days ago. And, no, it doesn't work. I'll assume it's on my end (it's possible) and apologize in advance for not returning your emails. Any further discussion would probably best be done on the Suggestions Forum.
Rich
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited July 25, 2000).]
OTOH, going to the knee and shooting up is another alternative, as is the "sidestep the rush and fire a warning shot to the pate".
Sprig-
When you use the icons to email TFL, it comes to me. And, yes, I learned to use the "reply" button about 4 days ago.
And, no, it doesn't work. I'll assume it's on my end (it's possible) and apologize in advance for not returning your emails. Any further discussion would probably best be done on the Suggestions Forum.Rich
[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited July 25, 2000).]
Would any of our great archivist have info on the laws of Haiti regarding private ownership and/or registration of firearms?
------------------
Sam I am, grn egs n packin
Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
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Sam I am, grn egs n packin
Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
I certainly hope that I never find myself in a position such as Sprig described. In the event that something like that were to happen, I would merely follow what my kung fu teacher taught us about fighting. He said something to the effect of "Never use what you have learned for vengence, only do so to protect yourself,your loved ones, and those that belong to you. And if you must do so, be deliberate, determined and deadly."
With that said, If I walk into a situation like Sprig posted (armed or unarmed), I will use lethal force to protect my own. If that results in the bad guy dying, sucks to be him.
------------------
"There are roads that must not be followed, and battles that must not be fought.." --Sun Tzu
With that said, If I walk into a situation like Sprig posted (armed or unarmed), I will use lethal force to protect my own. If that results in the bad guy dying, sucks to be him.
------------------
"There are roads that must not be followed, and battles that must not be fought.." --Sun Tzu
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rich Lucibella:
Well said, TV.
OTOH, going to the knee and shooting up is another alternative, as is the "sidestep the rush and fire a warning shot to the pate".
Sprig-
When you use the icons to email TFL, it comes to me. And, yes, I learned to use the "reply" button about 4 days ago.
Rich[/quote]
Alright! We can discuss tactics later! Without writing a whole page introduction and every detail, I wanted to give reason that only 1 shot was fired initially. I did feel that since the attacker was an immediate threat NOW to YOU, that rule #4 might go out the window. We all do stupid things, especialy when groggy from sleep. Then, as he falls two things happen. You see your daughter, come back a little closer to reality, and he is no longer an "immediate" threat.
Or, create some other reasons! With various home layouts, the speed of the attacker, the lighting, ect. there can be good reason to fire only one initial shot.
-----
To Rich,
I wasn't trying to be sarcastic about the "reply button". I was trying to understand how/why I couldn't be emailed directly from the email I sent. I didn't know if you were trying cut/paste from TFL information. It just seemed odd that hitting reply wouldn't work.
BTW, It still seems odd.
Sprig
Well said, TV.
OTOH, going to the knee and shooting up is another alternative, as is the "sidestep the rush and fire a warning shot to the pate".
Sprig-
When you use the icons to email TFL, it comes to me. And, yes, I learned to use the "reply" button about 4 days ago.
Rich[/quote]
Alright! We can discuss tactics later! Without writing a whole page introduction and every detail, I wanted to give reason that only 1 shot was fired initially. I did feel that since the attacker was an immediate threat NOW to YOU, that rule #4 might go out the window. We all do stupid things, especialy when groggy from sleep. Then, as he falls two things happen. You see your daughter, come back a little closer to reality, and he is no longer an "immediate" threat.
Or, create some other reasons! With various home layouts, the speed of the attacker, the lighting, ect. there can be good reason to fire only one initial shot.
-----
To Rich,
I wasn't trying to be sarcastic about the "reply button". I was trying to understand how/why I couldn't be emailed directly from the email I sent. I didn't know if you were trying cut/paste from TFL information. It just seemed odd that hitting reply wouldn't work.
BTW, It still seems odd.
Sprig
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Sprig-
Sorry, I thought your were referencing the reply button in email. Turns out my responses to you last night were bouncing from your email server. I had some of the Staff try this morning and they got thru. As you know, so did I.
No harm done.
Rich
Sorry, I thought your were referencing the reply button in email. Turns out my responses to you last night were bouncing from your email server. I had some of the Staff try this morning and they got thru. As you know, so did I.
No harm done.
Rich