Double Naught Spy
New member
I have had a lot of anatomy courses. You are going to have to explain exactly how it is that the nervous systems of bear and hogs are different from deer. I can't recall ever reading where this was the case.
Shock/energy/knockdown
- Thread starter Boogershooter
- Start date
I have had a lot of anatomy courses. You are going to have to explain exactly how it is that the nervous systems of bear and hogs are different from deer. I can't recall ever reading where this was the case.
While I still have questions concerning LHO being the only man involved, a video of one of the
live goat tests re the CNS effects of a rear headshot was part of the House Select Committee on
Assassinations televised (re) investigation back in the late `70s.
In it was broadcast a live/standing goat hit in approximately the same area as the President,
and instead of being blown forward, the entire goat spasm'd completely straight out,
head and spine severely arched in a significant bow up and backwards.
It was an eye-opener for me at the time
Boogershooter
New member
Why do deer jump and kick when hit thru the heart with a bow but not with a rifle? Why do some flip over backwards when hit in the neck or chest from a forward angle and some just drop? Why do some deer lay (dead) for 5 minutes then get up and run? Seems like the effects of certain shots and calibers may attract us to hunting just as much as the meat or thrill of the kill does!
Gunplummer
New member
Good point. I mentioned one time that I have shot two deer that flipped on their back, feet in the air. Of course, you always get the internet experts that say according to the laws of Physics that is not possible. From what I have seen, if you shoot a deer straight on into the neck at spine level, it is possible. The bullet destroys the spinal cord which causes the rear end to simply cease to function and drop. The impact of the bullet is directed into the length of the spine which is pretty much a solid object at that angle. The two events happening at the same time is enough to flip the deer over on it's back.
Or, it could just be a fluke.
Or, it could just be a fluke.
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
I find the discussion interesting...
my 1st exposure to the damage of a bullet on bigger than varmint animals, was my 1st year at FIL's deer camp... being a newbie, I did all the field dressing that year on 10 or 11 deer ( I think they wanted to make sure the new guy knew how to field dress a deer ) ... 1st thing... I only field dressed "dead" deer
all deer were killed with rifles including... .243 Winchester, 30-30, several 30-06's, 300 Win Mag, & 45-70... bear in mind, everything died... I was observing the wound channels, & the amount of "bloodshot" or bruising from the bullet... interestingly the 30-30 & the 45-70 had the least bruising... again those deer still died in an acceptabely quick time frame... the 300 Win Mag, had huge bruising...
a couple years later I got to witness a deer shot in the chest with a 12 ga slug... the slug hit a rib going in, & blew a vollyball sized hole, dragging at least a lung & portion of the heart on it's way out... no problem tracking that deer
... but it still ran a good portion of a mile up a hill before it dropped "dead"
as mentioned, deer & elk, are different than bear, but lets just also say, that hunting dangerous game requires different tactics... most guides will tell you to break a shoulder, not that a shot to the heart or lungs, won't kill the animal, only that it may be capable of killing you, before it knows it's dead...
I have a tendancy to favor big heavy bone crushing bullets... but I've also found that shooting wood chucks, with 357, & shooting COM, that big heavy bullets often did not stop a wood chuck with one shot, & I had better luck with them, with with 110's or 125's at higher velocity...
so what have I learned??? apperently not much
my 1st exposure to the damage of a bullet on bigger than varmint animals, was my 1st year at FIL's deer camp... being a newbie, I did all the field dressing that year on 10 or 11 deer ( I think they wanted to make sure the new guy knew how to field dress a deer ) ... 1st thing... I only field dressed "dead" deer
all deer were killed with rifles including... .243 Winchester, 30-30, several 30-06's, 300 Win Mag, & 45-70... bear in mind, everything died... I was observing the wound channels, & the amount of "bloodshot" or bruising from the bullet... interestingly the 30-30 & the 45-70 had the least bruising... again those deer still died in an acceptabely quick time frame... the 300 Win Mag, had huge bruising...a couple years later I got to witness a deer shot in the chest with a 12 ga slug... the slug hit a rib going in, & blew a vollyball sized hole, dragging at least a lung & portion of the heart on it's way out... no problem tracking that deer
... but it still ran a good portion of a mile up a hill before it dropped "dead"as mentioned, deer & elk, are different than bear, but lets just also say, that hunting dangerous game requires different tactics... most guides will tell you to break a shoulder, not that a shot to the heart or lungs, won't kill the animal, only that it may be capable of killing you, before it knows it's dead...
I have a tendancy to favor big heavy bone crushing bullets... but I've also found that shooting wood chucks, with 357, & shooting COM, that big heavy bullets often did not stop a wood chuck with one shot, & I had better luck with them, with with 110's or 125's at higher velocity...
so what have I learned??? apperently not much
The only thing I've learned is if you want a for sure DRT the bullet needs to hit the CNS above the 3rd vertebrae.
Hits to the heart/lung maybe/maybe not.
One thing hunting with a rifle has done is given me very little faith in a handgun stopping a determined foe without a hit to the CNS above the 3rd vertebrae.
My simple formula is that I limit my range to 1,000 ft/pds of energy. For the last two days I have seen a shooter buck that is approximately 500 yards away. I can't get any closer due to the lay of the land and other tracts of private property. So far I haven't had a decent shot (he's facing the wrong way, chasing does around) but my rifle/ammo combination (257 B with 115 Partition) is right at that limit. I want to make sure that my bullet has ample energy to perform like it should (mushroom) and hopefully do a through and through so if things go downhill I have a blood trail.
I read the OP and went right to reply...sorry if this has been brought up.
The OP states that
1. They shot DEAD pigs
2. That at a certian threshold the Pigs were STUNNED
Im sorry if im dense today, but exactly HOW do you stun a dead pig???
Or does that make this a Zombie apocalypse thread
The OP states that
1. They shot DEAD pigs
2. That at a certian threshold the Pigs were STUNNED
Im sorry if im dense today, but exactly HOW do you stun a dead pig???
Or does that make this a Zombie apocalypse thread
Double Naught Spy
New member
Well, and there is stun and overstun. This would be a case of overstun.
Consider an artillery battlefield casualty such that we have a pristine corpse with no shrapnel wounds but nevertheless the subject is quite dead.
How does that figure in? Can there be some sort of internal death by concussion along the lines of the OP? Above and beyond bleeding, organ damage, etc.
How does that figure in? Can there be some sort of internal death by concussion along the lines of the OP? Above and beyond bleeding, organ damage, etc.
To answer the question about shock kills from explosives; (bombs, shells and gas explosions ect)
The center of a blast from an artillery shell has a shrapnel sphere which can be moving at 20,000 FPS and the expanding gas is far faster than that. According to the DuPont Blasters Handbook such blast centers can be moving at speeds of 100,000 FPS at their concentrated center.
So the idea that shock can kill is not without basis, but comparing a shock wave that starts to effect a body at 3,000 FPS to one that starts to effect a body at even 50,000 FPS is quite different.
If a man is in the blast fan of any explosion and the impact is close enough to hit him at 10,000 FPS or faster, there is no need for fragments to kill him The blast itself will do it.
Now back to the original subject.
There is no simple answer.
There are way to many variables.
I have killed more animals than I can count in my several decades as a hunter. One thing that was very interesting to me was the effects of the 458 Win Mag, the 50-140 Sharps and the 460 G&A on deer. (yeah.....I used them when that was what I had in my hands and I saw a deer to shoot. I did this MANY times) All these big guns killed them well, but none were as quick as my 270 Winchester.
So "stopping power" is a combination of bullet performance and that performance is effected by what it hits and where, as well as the resistance of the target to the bullet.
Bullets don't actually kill.
Bullet holes kill.
Bullet holes vary in their angle through a body, the size of the body, the condition of the body, the range to the body, the strike (or lack of strike) against bone, what bone is hit, what the fragments of the bones do ..........and probably about 30 other things that I will not take the time to type here.
In my experience the fastest killer overall I have ever used on deer from 100 pounds to 300 pounds has been the 270 Winchester.
I have done a lot of game killing with the 375H&H also and many deer have fallen to it, but overall the 270 kills game up to 300 pounds faster than my 375.
The 375 is FAR more powerful, but the way that power is transmitted to flesh and bone is slower than the 270. In my opinion the 270 is dumping about 80%-90% of it's energy where the 375 is dumping only about 25% of it's energy in a deer.
Where you see the power of the 375 is in killing elk. On elk (and elk size game, or game from 700 to 2000 pounds) the power of the 375 is evident over the 270.
Shock is ok and we see it at times, but not every time, but a bullet that doesn't shatter and is run through an animal at the correct angle will do a lot better than all the hob-knobing and armchair theories ever contrived. Shot placement is the real key.
The center of a blast from an artillery shell has a shrapnel sphere which can be moving at 20,000 FPS and the expanding gas is far faster than that. According to the DuPont Blasters Handbook such blast centers can be moving at speeds of 100,000 FPS at their concentrated center.
So the idea that shock can kill is not without basis, but comparing a shock wave that starts to effect a body at 3,000 FPS to one that starts to effect a body at even 50,000 FPS is quite different.
If a man is in the blast fan of any explosion and the impact is close enough to hit him at 10,000 FPS or faster, there is no need for fragments to kill him The blast itself will do it.
Now back to the original subject.
There is no simple answer.
There are way to many variables.
I have killed more animals than I can count in my several decades as a hunter. One thing that was very interesting to me was the effects of the 458 Win Mag, the 50-140 Sharps and the 460 G&A on deer. (yeah.....I used them when that was what I had in my hands and I saw a deer to shoot. I did this MANY times) All these big guns killed them well, but none were as quick as my 270 Winchester.
So "stopping power" is a combination of bullet performance and that performance is effected by what it hits and where, as well as the resistance of the target to the bullet.
Bullets don't actually kill.
Bullet holes kill.
Bullet holes vary in their angle through a body, the size of the body, the condition of the body, the range to the body, the strike (or lack of strike) against bone, what bone is hit, what the fragments of the bones do ..........and probably about 30 other things that I will not take the time to type here.
In my experience the fastest killer overall I have ever used on deer from 100 pounds to 300 pounds has been the 270 Winchester.
I have done a lot of game killing with the 375H&H also and many deer have fallen to it, but overall the 270 kills game up to 300 pounds faster than my 375.
The 375 is FAR more powerful, but the way that power is transmitted to flesh and bone is slower than the 270. In my opinion the 270 is dumping about 80%-90% of it's energy where the 375 is dumping only about 25% of it's energy in a deer.
Where you see the power of the 375 is in killing elk. On elk (and elk size game, or game from 700 to 2000 pounds) the power of the 375 is evident over the 270.
Shock is ok and we see it at times, but not every time, but a bullet that doesn't shatter and is run through an animal at the correct angle will do a lot better than all the hob-knobing and armchair theories ever contrived. Shot placement is the real key.