Shock and being hit in the liver

I am a veterinarian, general practice, not a surgical specialist. Injuries to the liver and diaphragm are fairly common among pets hit by cars, and we also need to biopsy the liver for diagnostic purposes with some frequency.

While the liver bleeds readily, it is also soft and deformable, so it closes on itself and staunches minor bleeding fairly easily. Large arteries need to be tied off, but smaller bleeders in the bulk of the liver resolve with pressure, and the liver in its own place, surrounded by other organs and fat, has a fairly strong tendency to put sufficient pressure on its own defects and form serviceable clots.

Handling the liver in surgery has left me thinking that it is not that great a target, simply because hitting a big artery that would result in a fairly quick physiologic stop is quite a crap shoot. There is much wisdom in JohnKSa's words about a psychological stop, and a shot to the liver may have a lot of value in that way. A chest shot, with hemothorax and/or pneumothorax occurring even when you miss the heart, seems to me to have better odds for a physiological stop.

The debate about temporary wound cavities has been around for many moons. Based on how soft tissue reacts in surgery, my bet would be that temporary cavities would have to encompass a blood vessel of significant size to cause a physiological stop in short order, and really big arteries aren't that closely spaced in much of the body. Stretching of viscera causes significant pain, though, so I would expect the size of the temporary cavity to have a variable but often significant effect on psychological stops.

A lot of people overestimate the potential for bleeding from a wound. I had a surgery professor once tell me "Significant bleeding is that which you can hear." That was tongue in cheek, of course, but the point he was making is valid to both surgery and self defense: It takes a big artery to lose blood fast enough to put you in immediate danger. When someone is shooting back at you, you don't want to wait for the blood to gradually ooze out of him so that he slips peacefully into shock and unresponsiveness. The way to end the fight is to hit something important, hit it fast, and hit it hard. The liver, especially in its periphery, is not such a site.
 
Last edited:
I am not a surgeon, but I did do a 3 month surgery rotation as a 3rd year medical student. The problem with the "temporary" wound channel is that it can disrupt blood vessels and leave devitalized tissues that MUST be removed to prevent overwhelming infections. The temporary wound channel is often the cause of death especially with high velocity wounds.

I agree. The trauma caused by pistol bullets is difficult to measure, but can contribute to incapacitation. However, it's unpredictable and not something you can count on.

High powered rifle stretches (tears) tissue beyond it's ability to recover and ruptures blood vessels and damages internal organs. You could probably say that the temporary wound cavity isn't so temporary with high velocity.
 
I am a firm believer in the "psychological factor" of a louder bullet.

The .357 Sig and .357 magnum are so loud, they produce a great number of psychological stops, from what I've read. It is interesting to note, however, that the sound pressures produced by these rounds will make you lose your hearing temporarily, if not permanently if shot indoors without hearing protection.

I'm not sure the trade-off compared to other rounds is a good idea unless you are someone like a highway patrolman working outdoors.

The +P+ 9mm in 115 grain has a similiar noise affect.
 
It's hard for me to remember the effect of liver hits on deer since the bullets did other damage. One deer i hit direcly on the liver and it was disintegrated ! No piece of liver was bigger than 1/8" :eek:.With only a 6.5x55 .Never saw anything like that.
 
I should clear up my original post. I wasn't referring to direct hits to the liver, just the correlation of temporary cavity and a kick to the liver area. The debilitating effects of a kick to the liver are sudden. I think it's entirely possible that a round passing close the liver or other organ, but not striking it directly could have a similar affect to a live kick.
 
And bacon!

Seriously, I've been fascinated in a grim sort of way with the professionals opining on this particular question.
 
I am a firm believer in the "psychological factor" of a louder bullet.

The .357 Sig and .357 magnum are so loud, they produce a great number of psychological stops, from what I've read...................

I've heard of such "stops" where bullet hits were concerned. Have to admit that psychological stops from the noise are a whole new subject. Interesting considering that auditory exclusion works both ways in a gun fight.
 
Auditory exclusion is common, but not everyone experiences it. I recall reading that one of the surviving officers in the FBI Miami shootout recalled not only hearing the reports of the various firearms being fired but also being able to distinguish the different characteristics of the muzzle reports.
 
deer

No surgeon here, but I have shot more than a handful of deer through the liver with a broadhead tipped arrow, usually not on purpose. Not sure of the relevance to the conversation, but a liver shot deer so hit can last a long time and be difficult to recover if not handled right.
 
Back
Top