Shipping/storing question

[dogtown tom]

RX-79G ......And having someone else hold your boxed, addressed gun until the shipper gets it doesn't mean that they are "shipping it". You box it, you address it, you pay for it, you shipped it. This isn't a chain of custody issue, or you wouldn't be able to legally ship to yourself at someone else's address.

You are wholly and completely wrong.......and note your last sentence.

When YOU ship YOUR firearm interstate, addressed to YOURSELF, YOU never relinquish possession. Leaving it with someone else to deliver it to the carrier DOES BREAK the chain of possession. As would someone other than yourself opening the package at its destination.

Federal law doesn't give a rats hiney who the owner is, but who is in POSSESSION. If you disagree you need to find the ATF regulation that supports that.

Here's the FAQ from ATF:

Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons#shipping-firearms-additional

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

Note the word "possession", and note that it does not say someone other than yourself can ship it to you. Doing so becomes an illegal interstate transfer.

There are enough restrictions on gun owners without coming up with more through creative interpretation.

I agree, but unlike you I have posted information that supports my claims.....now its your turn.

 

[RX-79G]

You just made my point. The law says that someone else holding a box with your gun in it is NOT possession.

It is only your special interpretation that the period when someone holds your boxed firearm can only be after shipment. It doesn't say that. It does say that possession occurs when the box is opened.

UPS is not an FFL or government entity. If handling a gun in a box is possession, then shipping it would be impossible because every employee would be in possession. Same thing with a moving company. Magically, they are not.

Asking a friend to pass a sealed box to FEDEX is no different than one FEDEX employee handing it to another. All of those people are just serving as couriers, not taking possession.

The whole system is only possible because it does not demand an individual chain of custody.

Next time you go to a gun shop and an employee whose name isn't on the FFL hands you a gun to look at, think about what your ideas about "possession" imply just happened. Did you just take possession? Did you just get loaned a gun for sporting purposes?

The intent of the law is to prevent illegal interstate transfers, not create felons. No one is going to be investigated, arrested or prosecuted for handing off a box.

 

[dogtown tom]

RX-79G You just made my point. The law says that someone else holding a box with your gun in it is NOT possession.

No, it doesn't say that at all.
What it DOES say is that if YOU ship a firearm interstate addressed to you, the recepient does not violate the law unless they open the box. You are completely ignoring or ignorant of the /federal laws regarding interstate commerce in firearms.

It is only your special interpretation that the period when someone holds your boxed firearm can only be after shipment. It doesn't say that. It does say that possession occurs when the box is opened.

Please quote the ATF regs that say otherwise. You make a lot of claims and back them up with nothing.

UPS is not an FFL or government entity. If handling a gun in a box is possession, then shipping it would be impossible because every employee would be in possession. Same thing with a moving company. Magically, they are not.

If you would spend a few minutes actually READING ATF regulations you would understand why a common carrier CAN LEGALLY possess a firearm while being shipped. You are digging your hole of ignorance deeper and deeper.

Asking a friend to pass a sealed box to FEDEX is no different than one FEDEX employee handing it to another. All of those people are just serving as couriers, not taking possession.

Horsehockey. FedEx employees are acting as "common carriers".
Using your brilliant theory anyone could ship firearms interstate to each other, claiming "but, but, but I'm just a courier!".

The whole system is only possible because it does not demand an individual chain of custody.

You keep using the term "chain of custody".........which has nothing to do with Federal laws regarding the interstate shipment of firearms.

Next time you go to a gun shop and an employee whose name isn't on the FFL hands you a gun to look at, think about what your ideas about "possession" imply just happened. Did you just take possession? Did you just get loaned a gun for sporting purposes?

Dude..........I AM AN FFL.......I know exactly what is possession, I know exactly what is a loan for sporting purposes.......I'm knee deep in these regs everyday. Quite obviously you are not.

The intent of the law is to prevent illegal interstate transfers, not create felons. No one is going to be investigated, arrested or prosecuted for handing off a box.

Exactly.....its the law. And Federal law is damn clear: When a firearm is shipped interstate it must be addressed to a licensee with only a couple of narrow exceptions:
1. The return of a firearm from a licensee to a nonlicensee that was sent for repair or replacement.
2. When a person ships a firearm addressed to themselves in another state.

Federal law/ATF regs do not give an exemption for a friend to hand it to the post office or to drop it off at FedEx/UPS on your behalf.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

And having someone else hold your boxed, addressed gun until the shipper gets it doesn't mean that they are "shipping it". You box it, you address it, you pay for it, you shipped it. This isn't a chain of custody issue, or you wouldn't be able to legally ship to yourself at someone else's address.

There are enough restrictions on gun owners without coming up with more through creative interpretation.

It is only your special interpretation that the period when someone holds your boxed firearm can only be after shipment. It doesn't say that. It does say that possession occurs when the box is opened.

It is you who is coming up with the creative interpretation. Under any commonly-accepted definition of "shipper," the person who carries a package into the post office or shipping terminal, who fills out the paperwork and hands it to the clerk, and who hands the money to the clerk is going to be considered the "shipper."

The law and the BATFE guidance are very clear -- an individual may ship a firearm to him/herself in care of another person. The law and the BATFE guidance do NOT say that another person may hold your firearm and then ship it to you on a pre-established date. As I tried to explain in a previous post, objectively it would appear that the two actions are functionally equivalent, but legally they are NOT equivalent.

You really need to review the law and the BATFE guideline with an eye for understanding what they actually say, as opposed to what you wish they said.

 

[carguychris]

Back to the original question...

Allow me to discuss something else that nobody is arguing about yet.

We are going to my home in Montreal, Canada for a few months until husband starts his new job....

In comes the issue with firearms. This is what I've learned so far....

B - We cannot bring them with us to Canada. Bringing handguns to Canada is about on par with giving birth in terms of pain level.

(emphasis mine)

Are you a Canadian citizen? Although I doubt this will help you in time for your move, may I suggest looking into applying for a Possession & Acquisition Licence (PAL) while you are in Canada, so you can legally possess firearms in the country on a long-term basis.

I'm not an expert on the subject and I don't have a PAL myself. However, I understand that this requires some paperwork and a background check, and you have to take a class called the Canadian Firearms Safety Course (CFSC).

In addition, all handguns in Canada fall into either the Restricted or Prohibited legal categories. (Civilian ownership of "Prohibited" firearms is actually not entirely prohibited, but is restricted to people who already own one under a grandfather clause, hence they will be off-limits to you; I won't discuss it further.) Possession of Restricted firearms requires an endorsement on your PAL, which requires a second class known as the Restricted Canadian Firearms Safety Course (RCFSC), and generally also requires membership in a gun club. Furthermore, transportation of a Restricted firearm requires a specific Authorization To Transport (ATT). (Please note that neither an ATT or a PAL is an authorization to carry; civilian carry of handguns is almost always verboten in Canada unless it's required for your JOB.)

That said, it is my understanding that bringing a handgun to Canada is NOT that difficult if you already have a Restricted PAL and an appropriate ATT. This might give you something to do during those 45 days.

There are, however, a few important caveats: handguns with barrels shorter than 105mm (4.14") and .25 or .32-caliber handguns fall in the Prohibited category, as do magazines with >10rd capacity. The 105mm limit excludes many older American service pistols and most newer compact handguns; however, many newer so-called "4-inch" handguns are deliberately made with barrels ~4.2" long so the gunmaker doesn't have to produce a special version for the Canadian commercial market.

More info here:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/information/lic-per-eng.htm
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/restr-eng.htm

 

[kilimanjaro]

I would just box them up, and store them with a trusted friend in Arizona.

When your trip is completed, you can just drive back to Arizona in two days and pick them up yourself.

Call it a mini-vacation.

 

[BigD_in_FL]

Of course, having access to a safe deposit box is dependent on one being available in a convenient location.
Some banks only rent them out to their regular customers.

So, open an account with a few bucks, get a safety deposit box for 3 or 6 months; come back, close the account after emptying your box

no biggie; I know folks who do this every time they travel northward and decide to go to Canada at the last minute

 

[RX-79G]

Gentleman,

Respectfully, we are all reading the same laws. The difference is looking for a narrow definition of the language in the laws and presuming that the law reads as a guide to what is allowed, rather than what is forbidden. One could draw a parallel between reading 2A as an individual right, or presuming that the militia part defines the rest of it as a restriction to militias only.

As I doubt Dogtown only sells guns to militias, let's talk about what the law does and does not say, and what we're supposed to make of what it says:

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

What it DOES say is that if YOU ship a firearm interstate addressed to you, the recepient does not violate the law unless they open the box. You are completely ignoring or ignorant of the /federal laws regarding interstate commerce in firearms.

In the regs you quote, it doesn't say "recipient" anywhere. The sentence "Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm," stands on its own, without designating that this is about the recipient. In fact, it would be most accurate to say that no person who handles the package can open it BUT the owner - which includes the carrier(s). Where did you read recipient?

Horsehockey. FedEx employees are acting as "common carriers".
Using your brilliant theory anyone could ship firearms interstate to each other, claiming "but, but, but I'm just a courier!".

The law actually refers to "common and contract carriers". What makes this messy is that both of these are definitions used in interstate commerce. But let me suggest that my brilliant theory is that anyone who you ask to carry something for you is a contract carrier. As long as the firearm is not unwrapped by either the contract carrier or the common carrier, both are complying with the law. If your friend drops a package you wrapped, addressed and paid for at FedEx, he has "carried" the package, not taken possession of the firearm. The fact that he carried out this "carry contract" for free or for a fee doesn't make him any different than any other contracted carrier. (All of which may be irrelevant if that carrier never crossed a state line, which is what 18 USC regulates.) This is the reason even your movers can legally transport your firearms for you.

The person must notify the mover that firearms are being transported.

Who's a "mover"?

Finally, the rest of your disagreement comes from a extremely restrictive view of what a "shipper" is, or what you do to "ship" something. I'm quite sure that anyone who boxed, addressed, contracted the shipping and paid for the shipping of something illegal to ship - like cocaine - would be charged for violations of interstate commerce laws, regardless of whether they dropped it off at FedEx or had someone else do it. The opposite, that a person who intends to ship something but does everything BUT hand it to the contract carrier can't both be true. Either the shipper is the one who causes shipping to happen, or it is a variety of other people who simply handle a box, paste a label, etc.

Imagine what it would be like to live in a country where your friend hands a box to the UPS driver because you're in the bathroom, and that act causes him to be in violation of Federal interstate commerce law. Ridiculous!



I am all for following the law, and the intent and language of the law is to prevent illegal interstate transfers and prevent seemingly accidental possession. But "possession" under 18 USC is, at best, poorly defined. There are numerous legal situations where one could assume a change in possession has happened when it has not. It is why a felon can marry and co-habitate with a gun owner, why you can contract to send a gun over state lines, and why you can lend a handgun to a minor for work or to anyone else for "sporting purposes".

The laws are a guide to what is forbidden, which is the way laws are supposed to work in a free country. That does create areas that appear gray, but when it isn't spelled out as black, free people should assume it is white.


And in the case of you handing a gun to a browsing customer, show me which law specifically says that is permissible. If possession is as restrictive as you believe, how are you not violating this principle when you hand a gun to someone without transferring first?

The answer is likely that "taking possession" is a more specific activity than handing off a box or holding a gun. I would imagine that the most important aspect of possession is intent - which is why a broken open gun box also doesn't make someone into a felon. Nor does a good faith effort on a person's part to use contract and common carriers to send a firearm to themselves. There are no "exemptions" needed when something isn't specifically prohibited.

I think too many gun people get carried away making broad and paralyzing interpretations of the laws. There is an awful lot of stuff that is clearly permissible that the law doesn't specifically delineate, and this is one of those things.

 

[dogtown tom]

Oh good grief it gets better.........

In the regs you quote, it doesn't say "recipient" anywhere. The sentence "Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm," stands on its own, without designating that this is about the recipient. In fact, it would be most accurate to say that no person who handles the package can open it BUT the owner - which includes the carrier(s). Where did you read recipient?

I'm starting to think you're a troll.

If you take the stance that certain sentences "stand on their own".....what about "A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person..." ? It doesn't say friend, wife, roommate or neighbor does it?

As far as my use of the term recepient, if the person who receives the package at that out of state address for the owner isn't the recepient........then who the heck is? Addressee and recepient are not necessarily the same thing. I am a licensed dealer, all of my firearm shipments are delivered to my UPS Store account where they sign for those packages.....I am the addressee, they are receiving the firearms for me.

The law actually refers to "common and contract carriers". What makes this messy is that both of these are definitions used in interstate commerce. But let me suggest that my brilliant theory is that anyone who you ask to carry something for you is a contract carrier. As long as the firearm is not unwrapped by either the contract carrier or the common carrier, both are complying with the law. If your friend drops a package you wrapped, addressed and paid for at FedEx, he has "carried" the package, not taken possession of the firearm. The fact that he carried out this "carry contract" for free or for a fee doesn't make him any different than any other contracted carrier. (All of which may be irrelevant if that carrier never crossed a state line, which is what 18 USC regulates.) This is the reason even your movers can legally transport your firearms for you.

This is classic.....mind if I email this to my ATF IOI?
You have a serious misunderstanding of who may be a common carrier and how they are regulated. Start reading here:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/chapter-5/subchapter-II/part-I

And in the case of you handing a gun to a browsing customer, show me which law specifically says that is permissible.

Sorry, it's not against Federal law to do so. If you think it is YOU need to provide the citation.

If possession is as restrictive as you believe, how are you not violating this principle when you hand a gun to someone without transferring first?

Seriously? Possession, ie "holding the firearm in your hands" is not the same as the transfer of possession that occurs when a dealer sells and transfers a firearm to a customer.

And since you brought it up earlier, the temporary loan of a firearm to a nonresident isn't a transfer of possession either. Although the nonresident may be physically holding that firearm, and shooting it.


Your assumptions are based on a complete lack of understanding of the difference between the mere act of holding a firearm and the legal act of a transfer of possession. While you believe the differences to be minor, ATF does not.

 

[RX-79G]

I'm feeling a little trolled, myself.

The regulations don't refer to who the person is who can't open the package - it is everyone who comes in contact with it who isn't the owner. That includes, but is not restricted to the recipient. That is your idea, it doesn't come from anywhere. ALL persons who handle a boxed firearm in transit aren't allowed to open and take possession of it.

This is classic.....mind if I email this to my ATF IOI?
You have a serious misunderstanding of who may be a common carrier and how they are regulated. Start reading here:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/te...pter-II/part-I

What's classic is reading what I wrote about CONTRACT carriers and then responding with more about COMMON carriers. Contract carriers are anyone contracted to move your stuff. A common carrier does it on a schedule for the general public. UPS and FedEx are common carriers, Mayflower and Two Guys and a Truck are contract carriers. There is no discernible difference between a regular person and a contract carrier, especially in state. There is no special license to become a contract carrier of a firearm.

Contract carrier. Mover. Both mentioned in the regs.

Seriously? Possession, ie "holding the firearm in your hands" is not the same as the transfer of possession that occurs when a dealer sells and transfers a firearm to a customer.

So, you think that someone holding a box with a gun in it is possession, but holding the gun itself is not?

I know it is legal for your customers to handle your guns, but you don't seem to understand why it is legal. It is legal because it is not prohibited, just as it is not prohibited to have someone carry your boxed gun to a common carrier. Neither are specifically prohibited, but you say one is illegal possession and the other not. Bizarre.


And I'm in the process of writing up a bunch of this stuff to the ATF to get a letter back, because there is so much disagreement on this board about stuff that shouldn't be so hard.

 

[Powderman]

Fellas.....

Here it is:

1. YOU may ship a firearm to yourself. Example: I decide to again attend the Nationals at Camp Perry. I don't feel like driving, and I don't want the hassle of trying to transport by air. What to do?

Box the guns up, nothing on the outside that says "firearms", and take it to an authorized UPS Shipping Center--not a storefront or franchise. Tell them what you are doing, and have them ship to a specific center (they can provide a list) with a notation to "hold for pickup". Make your trip, pick up your guns.

2. Ship the same way, but ship it to a friend's address. Of course, you have contacted the friend, told them what is going on and you both agree. You have also told them that under NO circumstances can they or anyone else open the package. (Of course, you're going to insure the dickens out of it.)

You may NOT have someone else ship the firearm to you--unless YOU have sent the gun to an authorized repair center (factory) or gunsmith for repairs, in which case it can be shipped directly back to you.\

That wasn't so hard.....was it?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

In the regs you quote, it doesn't say "recipient" anywhere. The sentence "Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm," stands on its own, without designating that this is about the recipient. In fact, it would be most accurate to say that no person who handles the package can open it BUT the owner - which includes the carrier(s). Where did you read recipient?

Dogtown Tom didn't quote a regulation -- he quoted the BATFE guidance about the regulation.

The law is found at 18 USC § 922 - Unlawful acts.

Then there's 27 CFR 478.28 and 478.31

Read those, and then tell us where it's legal for someone else to ship a box with your gun in it to you.

 

[RX-79G]

Tell me where it says an FFL can hand a gun to someone without a transfer.

I'd wager you won't find that written, either.

 

[JimmyR]

Personally, I think shipping might be more expensive and more of a legal hassle than you want to deal with.

I do have a suggestion that hasn't been mentioned, but might be doable.

Find a Pawnbroker with an FFL. Pawn the guns for a few dollars, and they give you a certain amount of time to get them back. Once you return to the states, you can either go back and pick it up, or (if the pawnbroker will let you, something worth investigating ahead of time), mail them a check for what you owe (typically the amount of the "loan" plus 10-15%) plus shipping to an Ohio FFL of your choice. You then have 1) Safe storage of your weapon, 2) Travel cash, and 3) no legal hassles.

If the pawn shop is an FFL, then they would be able to ship the weapon via US Mail, and that can often be cheap enough to offset the 10-15% you have to pay them and the FFL transfer in your new home state.

 

[Powderman]

Good idea about the pawnbroker.

Unfortunately, there are still a couple of rough spots:

1. A pawnbroker can accept a firearm in pawn (assuming they have all the licenses.).

2. The pawnbroker MUST, upon redemption of the loan, execute a Form 4473.
3. This must be done IN PERSON.
4. In this instance, it is just like you're buying a firearm--the transfer process and laws governing it are the same. A long gun is usually no problem, as long as it's legal in your State of residence, and the State the transfer is done in.
5. For a handgun, you MUST have the transfer done IN PERSON in your State of residence.
6. Upon completion of the 4473, a NICS check is performed, with a transaction reference number generated. Again, exact procedures vary from State to State.

Now, if you have a home of record--and an actual PHYSICAL address within the State you're ending up in, then this might be possible.

Your best bet? I would suggest calling the ATF Compliance Office. No, they don't have two heads, nor do they spit acid. They do, however, appreciate people calling and getting clarification from the source.

 

[dogtown tom]

RX-79G I'm feeling a little trolled, myself.

Why?
I didn't join this forum last month and have been on here for years.

The regulations don't refer to who the person is who can't open the package - it is everyone who comes in contact with it who isn't the owner. That includes, but is not restricted to the recipient. That is your idea, it doesn't come from anywhere. ALL persons who handle a boxed firearm in transit aren't allowed to open and take possession of it.

Yes they do.
Read the ATF FAQ posted earlier.

Quote:
This is classic.....mind if I email this to my ATF IOI?
You have a serious misunderstanding of who may be a common carrier and how they are regulated. Start reading here:http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/te...pter-II/part-I

What's classic is reading what I wrote about CONTRACT carriers and then responding with more about COMMON carriers.

Whats classic is you thinking you discovered some secret regulation.
We ALREADY KNOW about that regulation since we deal with it all the time.

Contract carriers are anyone contracted to move your stuff. A common carrier does it on a schedule for the general public. UPS and FedEx are common carriers, Mayflower and Two Guys and a Truck are contract carriers.

Thank you Captain Obvious for this secret information.

There is no discernible difference between a regular person and a contract carrier, especially in state. There is no special license to become a contract carrier of a firearm.

Wrong.
And since this involves an INTERSTATE shipment you would be committing a felony.

Contract carrier. Mover. Both mentioned in the regs.

No kidding?

Quote:
Seriously? Possession, ie "holding the firearm in your hands" is not the same as the transfer of possession that occurs when a dealer sells and transfers a firearm to a customer.

So, you think that someone holding a box with a gun in it is possession, but holding the gun itself is not?

If you knew an iota of Federal law you would know the difference.

I know it is legal for your customers to handle your guns, but you don't seem to understand why it is legal. It is legal because it is not prohibited, just as it is not prohibited to have someone carry your boxed gun to a common carrier. Neither are specifically prohibited, but you say one is illegal possession and the other not. Bizarre.

I understand PERFECTLY. You do not understand the exemption on a person shipping a firearm to themselves. It's a matter of understand simple English.

And I'm in the process of writing up a bunch of this stuff to the ATF to get a letter back, because there is so much disagreement on this board about stuff that shouldn't be so hard.

You are the ONLY one in disagreement.
Good luck with your letter......see you back here in 6-9 months.

 

[dogtown tom]

JimmyR Personally, I think shipping might be more expensive and more of a legal hassle than you want to deal with.

Since neither UPS or FedEx will ship to a nonlicensee the idea of shipping the gun by the OP to friend or family is moot.

The OP's easiest option is shipping to a dealer who will hold it for her.

Find a Pawnbroker with an FFL. Pawn the guns for a few dollars, and they give you a certain amount of time to get them back. Once you return to the states, you can either go back and pick it up, or (if the pawnbroker will let you, something worth investigating ahead of time), mail them a check for what you owe (typically the amount of the "loan" plus 10-15%) plus shipping to an Ohio FFL of your choice. You then have 1) Safe storage of your weapon, 2) Travel cash, and 3) no legal hassles.

Very convulted and overly complicated vs just shipping it to any Ohio FFL who stores it until they move to Ohio.

If the pawn shop is an FFL, then they would be able to ship the weapon via US Mail, and that can often be cheap enough to offset the 10-15% you have to pay them and the FFL transfer in your new home state.

Tell me how paying a pawn shop a percentage PLUS transfer fee is cheaper than having an AZ dealer mail it to the Ohio dealer?

 

[BigD_in_FL]

Tell me how shipping it to a dealer to hold is cheaper than my previously mentioned safe deposit box?

 

[dogtown tom]

BigD_in_FL Tell me how shipping it to a dealer to hold is cheaper than my previously mentioned safe deposit box?

First, tell us where anyone said anything of the sort.

 

[Sevens]

I'm not FFL and won't duck in to the middle of a legal argument.

Ohio is a somewhat large state, depending on your perspective. You didn't mention whereabouts in the state you will end up at. Could be near Cincy, south.... Cleveland, north... or smack dab in the middle, where I am. Or anywhere else.

I'm also unclear as to how long you will be in Ohio?!

No matter. Purpose of my post is to point you to Gun Envy, LLC. If your destination or your trip route includes the center of the state, try these folks.

I have absolutely NO IDEA if they can help you. What I am certain about is that these are fine people. Small shop, large & dedicated customer base, and for a reason. Fantastic folks who won't waste even a minute of your time. They can help you... or perhaps they cannot. If they know even a smidge of help, they'll offer it with no strings attached.

This place and these guys are what the average gundood wants in a local FFL/Gun Shop.

Contact info here:
http://www.gunenvystore.com/