Shepherd Scope on a FAL

Back to the Topic at Hand!!!!

A few years ago a friend sent me his Shepherd to try out. This is what I wrote back to him.....

Opinions;

This is not a "precision" shooting scope. The 100 yard cross hairs subtend approx 1.25 inches. If someone was trying to take a surgical shot (brain stem) the cross hairs would cover the whole target.

The dual recticals (cross on one lens, circles on another) degrade the accuracy of this scope. You can shift point of impact with any head movement. With the way they are you have to line up the circles with the cross hair then line up the target with that. This setup kind of defeats the general concept of a scope (ie putting the target on the same plane as the cross hairs with only one aiming point). We shot with the scope and iron sights at 100 yards. Our groups with the iron sights were only a little larger then with the scope due to the above. Out at longer ranges it might improve but I don't think so.

You mentioned that you talk to Shephard. While I am by far no ""expert (nor were the other shooters) but the consensus was that if the circles and hairs were put on one lens it would improve the scope dramatically. This would cause him to have to drop the "one shot zero" claim as a sales pitch. But if anyone has a stable bench and a steady rest ANY scope can be zeroed with one shot. It just that most people don't know how to do it and what is needed. Also take out the 100 yard circle and just have cross hairs there. (I've left the scope in the configuration we think would work best... look through it when it arrives). We also don't think that it needs circles out to 1K yards. The three of us that shot it are of the opinion that the concept of this scope is great however for _precision_ long range (500 - 1K yards) shooting there are better options. When used as a hunting scope we seem to feel that circles out to 500 would be more then enough. If you are going to try a shot past 500 either try and get closer or get a different scope that has target knobs where you can dial in the zero.

The circles do make a fine range finder. But then again, you can only get range to the closest 100 yards. If it doesn't fit in any circle you are guesstimating the range. While not a factor at close range the farther out the target the bigger the margin for error which may result in a miss.

We shot the scope at the newly constructed range in my back yard (complete with back stop <G>) All shooting was done with my Competition AR-15 H-Bar that has a trigger job, the bore was punched with a brush and patch after every 5 rounds. While this is no bench rest gun it is acceptably accurate. Ammo used was Federal Match .223 69 gr BTHP (100 rds), and a handloaded .223 (50 rds) that was set up for one of the shooters Remington 40XB Bench Rest Kevlar Stock (BRKS) (one HELL of a gun.... single shot with 2 oz trigger and 36x Leupold w/fine cross hairs, if you don't get 1 hole groups at 100 yards it's YOUR fault). All shooting with the scope attached was done from a bench useing an Outters Varminter Rifle Rest. When shooting with the Iron sights we were on the ground in the prone with a competition sling. The shooter and their experience were

Me - None, just like to shoot <G>.

John - Alot of varmint hunting each year and shooting with his numerous rifles (he is the one with the 40XBBRKS). His varmint shooting is all done with a .223.

Dave - a friend from work. A bullseye shooter with base's pistol team but also does shoot the rifle competitions (military & state) for ****es and grins (he is not a top rifle competitor).

This was not _by a long shot_ a scientific evaluation of the scope by expert riflemen held to exacting criteria. So take the above with a grain of salt. The above is just our opinions and as you know opinions are like.....<G>.

Thanks for letting me try out the Shephard. It was alot of fun.
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I'm not going to get to the range today I'll be going tomorrow instead :(

Thats a good point that Schmit brought up. I haven't read anywhere on this site about having crosshairs cover up your target. I looked at some Fancy Leupold scope that was $700 and the first thing I thought was THIS GUN INHIBITS YOUR ABILITY TO SHOOT SUB MOA! I am very picky about recticles on scopes more than power or diameter.
 
SodaPop, in the old days, there were no Duplex cross-hairs. You got extra-fine, standard, and commonly a post with standard-thickness cross-hairs. Or a dot and fine cross-hairs.

The first time I saw a scope with the Duplex setup, I drooled, slobbered and bought one!

I've always figured that you just learn the "holdover" built in to the distance from the center of the cross-hairs to the top of the thick part of the vertical hair. After that, it's guesstimation and practice.

When Ol' Bucky jumps and runs, your only hope is to just reflexively know where is what on lead and elevation. By the time you worry about what dot or circle or line is what, guess what? He's gone, long gone!

Sorta seems to me that the "bells and whistles rigs" are meant for cooperative, sittin'-still targets.

:), Art
 
Schmit,

Thanks for the info on the scope. I hadn't thought about the dual-reticle problem. I've only handled one, and the fit/finish was nice. I seem to remember that the one I handled had very fine 'hairs (could be mistaken, it's been a couple months). I'll have to reconsider the scope....
 
PATH, I've used the P1 mounted on a Model 70 featherweight chambered in .280Rem. There were no accuracy problems. Also had the P2 version mounted on an AR-10 for awhile but have recently switched to the Springfield 7.62 model. What I don't like about these scopes: the thin 1" tube can be easily crunched, the ranging circles are difficult to use past 600 yds, and on both scopes the windage or elevation adjustment can affect the other axis.

Of course, once you've carefully mounted and zeroed one, don't intend to engage anything beyond 600 yds, and won't be bouncing it off of walls, floors, or the ground, then there really isn't a problem. JMHO.

If you want to know a little more about the manufacturer of this product, visit their site:
http://www.hakko-japan.co.jp/optical/english/indexe.htm

These are the folks who actually make Shepherd, Springfield, NightForce, and who knows what others.
 
Thank you for the info fellas! Much to think about now.
I know my FAL will not be a tack driver but I am hoping I can do fairly well on targets out to 600. Worse comes to worse I'll just throw the Shepherd on one of my hunting rifles.
 
Hakko - partially right

Actually, NightForce has completely divested themselves of Hakko after the first few years of production, citing quality control problems. This is from a reputable source of NightForce scopes, Bill Shehane, here's his website: http://www.scopeusout.com

I made the mistake over on a certain benchrest forum of making the connection between Hakko and NightForce. It was as if I had committed heresy against The Church, and I was reeducated rather quickly.

As for hanging a high-dollar scope on an FAL, I wouldn't do it on my Imbel/L1A1 a few years ago, since the gun just wouldn't group to the optics' capabilities. And this wasn't a Century FAL, it was actually pretty tight, with a gorgeous barrel, assembled by a reputable FAL-smith in Northern California. I sold it shortly after I tried using it in the Foreign Service Rifle category of the local High Power matches, even using a Hythe rear sight. The proceeds built the Armscorp/H&R M14NM that has been seen here at TFL on various postings, and I never looked back.

But I do run a NightForce on my mutt of a rebuilt WWI 6.5-06 FrankenMauser, so if the gun is up to the challenge, I say go for it!

And for goodness' sake, if you're gonna group a gun, military pattern or not, do yourself a favor and buy some Federal Match, Black Hills, or invest the time in some quality handloads. People trying to go sub-MOA with stuff like Radway Green are barking up the wrong tree...
 
Ok so it took me a week longer to post my results than I expected. We had a TFL shoot here in PA check out the lock and load forum in the next day or so for pictures. I shot "Exactly" 2MOA with South African ammo and Exactly 1 MOA at 100yds with a 4 shot group with Federal Gold Match ammo. I was surprised I did that well with my STG58. I also made hits out to 500yds without any problems with South African ammo. I have to scan the paper and figure out how to post pictures I will soon.
 
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