Sgt York and Jeff Cooper

We'll never know but I like to think that a forward thinking man like Cooper would have embraced some of the change.
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Remember, Col Cooper was a big fan of the 10mm and helped design the Bren ten pistol. He didnt think the 1911 was the end all, be all. Just the most user friendly avail at the time.
 
He didnt think the 1911 was the end all, be all. Just the most user friendly avail at the time.
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On numerous occasions Cooper said the 1911A1 was the best blend of power, controllability, size, weight, and ergonomics available.


i think he was right, then. And not far off the mark even today....;)
 
I think Cooper's idea of 10mm was about 10mm FBI or a top .40 SW.
He said the 10mm Norma did not show an advantage until 75 yards but would be good in a Carbine.
 
Cooper was also a proponent of and taught the Weaver Stance.

I still employ the weaver cause it's what I learned on.
 
bamaranger said:
Hollywood and Gary Cooper gave us the movie and it is entertaining and of course certainly not fact. I've enjoyed this discourse on York. Not long after visiting his gravesite in Pall Mall, I mentioned some to a certain educated and bright person of my acquaintance that I had done same. I was confounded when they did not know the Alvin York story. About to the same degree when a young man at the range asked what kind of rifle was my M-1 Garand:eek::eek:!
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Time passes and what was once common knowledge can change with that passage of time.

Alvin York’s exploits were legendary enough to warrant remembrance (I don’t see the use of the word legendary as a negative, nor did I get the impression the OP meant to call York’s actions into doubt). At the same time, over 100 years has passed since those actions. In that time the US fought another World War, wars in Korea and Vietnam, shorter conflicts, and wars in the Middle East (including a 20 year war that only ended recently). In that time a number of Medals of Honor for actions that to many might defy belief have been awarded. York is in the company of heroes. I don’t think it’s entirely unexpected that some people will never have heard of Alvin York, as he wasn’t a part of their generation’s era or even their parents for that matter (the same is true of the M1 Garand). It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t make an effort to keep that memory alive.
 
I only have Colt Commander as carry piece. Loaded with 230 Ball. Never had a hang up or hic-up. The miracle bullets they are peddling today are 90% sales hype. They have a special bullet for everything now. Hollow points with serrated edges? I guess they hurt more. Same with hunting ammo for rifles. It’s twice the price for half the ammo.
Do you know the story behind Bass Masters & Ray Scott? Basically he built a market for sales. Cooper was similar with a touch of secret agent stuff, implied but never documented.
I always put more stock in guys like Jordan and even Elmer.
 
Jim, I'd be willing to bet that Alvin York liked the Springfield because the battle sight, the v on the rear sight when it's folded down, was like the Rifles he grew up with.
 
Remember the era, VERY FEW common US hunting rifles had peep sights. They existed, but very few folks had them, especially poorer folks. Everything had a V or U notch leaf rear, at the economy level, so that's what we learned to use.

even decades later, peep sights weren't common on most hunting rifles. Most of the people who did have one learned to use it from military service. Target and match shooters used them a lot, but farmers and once a year deer hunters rarely did.
 
Yup.

It's very easy to understand why typical open sights can be very accurate. You can see that the rear notch is tiny and the front sight doesn't have much room to move around in it. You can also easily see when it's perfectly centered and lined up for elevation.

It can be sort of counterintuitive that peep sights are also very accurate because it seems like there's so much room for the front sight to move around in the aperture when you're looking through it. Also, it seems like there's no way to really verify that the front sight is properly centered.

When I started shooting aperture sights, it was hard for me to get my head around the whole idea of them and how they worked. But after I shot them for awhile it was easy to see that they did work and then I got to really like them.
 
The 03 battle sight is said to be calibrated for 547 yards (500 metres, I didn't know the Army was on the French System in 1907.)
But that means it will hit a standing man SOMEWHERE. I don't know the actual zero.
Hard to think a noted marksman like York would be content with that.
 
I was told 400yds, by 2 old time, pre WW2 shooters.
No matter, peep sights weren't common. York mostly learned to shoot using old time muzzle loading Rifles.
If he used a 1903, I like to think he was more comfortable with it.
 
Hard to think a noted marksman like York would be content with that.
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By all accounts he wasn't content with the peep sight, and I would think a noted marksman like York fully understood the difference between what the rifle in his hands would actually do and what the sight markings were good for.

I doubt there's any record but I'm confident that York sighted in his rifle before going into combat with it. We all shoot a little differently, and its a good thing to know if you need to set the sight of your rifle, ON the mark or just off it in order to hit at range.
 
JohnKSa said:
Yup.

It's very easy to understand why typical open sights can be very accurate. You can see that the rear notch is tiny and the front sight doesn't have much room to move around in it. You can also easily see when it's perfectly centered and lined up for elevation.

It can be sort of counterintuitive that peep sights are also very accurate because it seems like there's so much room for the front sight to move around in the aperture when you're looking through it. Also, it seems like there's no way to really verify that the front sight is properly centered.

When I started shooting aperture sights, it was hard for me to get my head around the whole idea of them and how they worked. But after I shot them for awhile it was easy to see that they did work and then I got to really like them.
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Good point and York probably felt the same.

Cooper was also an adamant proponent of the "ghost ring" big aperture rear peep sight. I felt the same as you when I first was taught to use a peep. No question, when compared to tangent iron sights, it is faster to get on target, especially for older eyes.
 
I doubt there's any record but I'm confident that York sighted in his rifle before going into combat with it.
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If as some accounts have it, he was issued a 1917 and had to scrounge a 1903, it would have been under field conditions. The wind gauge adjustment would not be a problem but the battle sight is not adjustable for elevation. I guess a Tennessee boy would have been accustomed to taking a fine bead to coarse bead to handle that.

Interestingly enough, the original 1903 Springfield had an open sight with tangent curve elevation adjustment, akin to some Mausers. York would probably have liked that. That went away along with Teddy Roosevelt's rejection of the ramrod bayonet, in favor of the 1905 knife bayonet and ladder sight. The sight calibration had to be redone ca 1907 as the '06 spitzer ammunition came into use.
 
Cooper's last .45 acp bullet?

The last bullet Cooper endorsed may well have been a concoction cooked up by him and custom gun plumber name of Lauck. A outfit called D&L bullets carries this projectile, a 200 gr sharp shouldered, RN. Jim Watson referred to this type of design in an earlier post, calling it the "Adams Bullet" I believe. If one searches "D&L bullets, Cooper .45 acp bullet", you should encounter their web page with pics and a good write-up. I think Hornady had introduced and discontinued their 230 gr truncated FP before the D&L became a commercial reality.

We might all still be shooting one handed if Cooper and his associates had not promoted the "modern technique". His color coded levels of awareness are still taught widely. Like it or lump it, the scout rifle still survives as well.
 
check

I've seen G&A mentioned in various texts, but their molds are before my time. I'd buy some of the D&L slugs, but I stumble up on alternatives cheaper.

Doesn't matter too much right now, I really short on Large Pistol primers.
 
G&A = Guns and Ammo magazine. Was once a reputable source.
Cooper said the Adams bullet was from a H&G - Hensley and Gibbs - mold but I could not find it on their mold number list.
 
I think Cooper's idea of 10mm was about 10mm FBI or a top .40 SW.
He said the 10mm Norma did not show an advantage until 75 yards but would be good in a Carbine.
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200 grains, with an impact velocity of 1000fps.
The book Bren Ten: The Heir Apparent, which was written with cooperation of Cooper, and both Dornaus and Dixon of Bren Ten fame, covered the development of the 10mm cartridge in detail.
To ensure the bullet would impact at 1000fps, a muzzle velocity of 1100 was specified, then concern that Norma might use a test barrel longer than that of the Bren, velocity was bumped again to 1150, then Norma had issues meeting the specs, etc., so we ended up with the never intended, magnum-level 10mm cartridge.
For handgun distances, 1050 at the muzzle would have been plenty, as the FBI later determined.
 
Kinda similar thing happened with the .41Mag. It was supposed to be a LE/SD cartridge that ran 200 something grain bullets at 1000 something fps. When the gun companies were done with it, it turned out to be nearly a twin of the .44Mag.
 
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