Sentry fire safe, why can't it be a gun safe?

[a1abdj]

UL72, Tests for Fire Resistance of Record Protection Equipment, provides for testing for Fire Endurance (section 5) and Fire and Impact (section 6).

Unless you can show me something, in writing from UL, I would have to say that your information is incorrect. I deal with safe manufacturers on a daily basis. I'm pretty sure they aren't lying when they speak of sending their safes for testing, or having inspectors at their facilities.

I can't find them at the moment, but I actually have some photos of vault doors being tested at UL.

As far as the inexpensive.....

I don't mean anything similar to the cars. I mean they use the cheapest components available in order to bring the price down.

Let's take electronic locks for instance. Many chinese electronic locks are simply a circuit board and solenoid. No bounce protection, no manipulation protection, no relock protection, and otherwise very easy to defeat.

There are electronic locks that the government uses that cost 5 times what that Sentry safe costs, just for the lock. Obviously, these locks are a little more sophisitcated, and offer better reliablity and function.

A very basic, decent quality, mechanical lock runs about $150. How can you use a quality lock when the whole safe sells for $100?

 

[Playboypenguin]

Unless you can show me something, in writing from UL, I would have to say that your information is incorrect.

Call them and ask for verification of the testing process on a certain safe. See what it gets you.

Manufacturers do their own testing under their own conditions and then produce whatever results they want which UL then endorses for a fee.

Let's take electronic locks for instance

How is that relevant to the safes I am using? They have manual locks. Similar to the same basic inexpensive manual combination locks that have been on our storage buildings at hom for at least the last 25 years.

 

[a1abdj]

Call them and ask for verification of the testing process on a certain safe. See what it gets you.

I don't need to call them. They spell out everything in writing. You can see for yourself here:

http://www.ul.com/faq/index.html

A small sample of what is said:

Q: Can you tell me about your Representatives and factory inspections?

A: UL Representatives audit a manufacturer periodically to make sure that a product continues to be manufactured the same way it was manufactured when it obtained UL certification. Factory inspections are unannounced and are conducted on a periodic basis. The UL Representative typically checks random samples of the customer's current production against the product description (Follow-up Service Procedure) written by the engineer who originally evaluated the product. If the product contains materials that are not readily identifiable, UL may conduct sample testing.

Now this is a generic statement made regarding all UL listed products, not just safes. If you'll note, it specifically mentions an engineer who originally evaluated the product. Believe it or not....safes are actually sent to, and tested at UL facilities by professional safe & vault engineers.

How is that relevant to the safes I am using? They have manual locks. Similar to the same basic inexpensive manual combination locks that have been on our storage buildings at hom for at least the last 25 years.

Many Sentry gun safes use a non mechanical, direct entry lock. No relockers, loose tolerances, and very little manipulation resistance. These types of locks also do not use relockers, and are easily opened by punching.

The locks I spoke of are mechanical locks. These locks have their own internal relocker, which are usually backed up by a secondary relocker installed by the manufactuer. These locks typicall have tight tolerances, and offer some manipulation resistance. Punching one of these locks will cause a theif more trouble that what it's worth.

 

[Playboypenguin]

Simply do as I stated and call them and demand verification of testing on a certain safe as I and another board memebr did awhile back. You will be told (after getting days of run around) what the actual process is and what laws govern it. You will then be referred to the manufacturer for the testing process details. Stop quoting sales ptches from the company themselves and call them on the carpet like I have said and see for yourself the reality of the situation...or do you just believe everything you read?

As for the locks...you clearly cited (when questioned about why you say they will fail) electronic locks. The safes you slammed do not have electronic locks. The locks on them do not have sloppy tolerences like you are saying now either. if I m off by one or two numbers either way it does not open. I have had similar locks for many years and never had one fail except in cases of rusting.

You are in the business. Point me towards some documented failure rates or some studies.

I am not saying that you don't get what you pay for or that I would not like a nicer, bigger safe. I am saying sometimes you pay for more than you are really getting and if someone doesn't have a few grand to throw away on a safe the cheaper alternatives are more than adequate. Their is no reason to go slamming them just because you want to sell a more expensive item.

 

[a1abdj]

Simply do as I stated and call them and demand verification of testing on a certain safe as I and another board memebr did awhile back. You will be told (after getting days of run around) what the actual process is and what laws govern it. You will then be referred to the manufacturer for the testing process details. Stop quoting sales ptches from the company themselves and call them on the carpet like I have said and see for yourself the reality of the situation...or do you just believe everything you read?

Here's what I do know. Insurance companies and many government agencies require UL ratings on their products. If it's not rated by the UL or equal foreign system, it's not considered rated. If it's not rated, it can't be used. If it can't be used, it has no value.

If you own a jewelry store, your insurance company wants to see UL ratings. If you own a bank, your vault door will have a UL rating (not counting doors made prior to ULs founding).

As for the locks...you clearly cited (when questioned about why you say they will fail) electronic locks. The safes you slammed do not have electronic locks. The locks on them do not have sloppy tolerences like you are saying now either. if I m off by one or two numbers either way it does not open. I have had similar locks for many years and never had one fail except in cases of rusting.

I'm not slamming these safes. I'm simply answering your question as to the "cheapness" of them.

Here's a general rule: Cheap safes are built cheaply. Expensive safes can be built cheaply. Cheap safes will NEVER be built expensively.

Consider this: Your $400 Sentry safe has to be built out of raw materals ($$) in a Chinsese factory ($$) using raw labor ($) for a profit ($$). These safes have to be trucked to the shipping terminal ($) and transported across the ocean ($$). Then they have to be shipped here in the US to their retail location ($$) and sold for a profit ($$).

Out of all of that expense, How much do you think they can afford to invest in the product?

You are in the business. Point me towards some documented failure rates or some studies.

There are many sources of this information, but it is not available to the general public for obvious security reasons. Don't take my word for it. Call your local safe techs and see what they have to say about them.

I am not saying that you don't get what you pay for or that I would not like a nicer, bigger safe. I am saying sometimes you pay for more than you are really getting and if someone doesn't have a few grand to throw away on a safe the cheaper alternatives are more than adequate. Their is no reason to go slamming them just because you want to sell a more expensive item.

I agree 100%, but I'll share a secret with you. I sell cheap imported safes myself. The difference is, I know what I'm selling, and can explain the differences to a consumer.

It seems that many people buy gun safes because they want a safe, and not because they need a safe. I suppose it's some sort of status symbol. People who need safes don't put the price high on the priority list. Many gun safe owners want to spend as little as possible.

If you want to keep your guns away from smash and grab burglars and children, then an inexpensive cabinet or deadbolted closet will provide you with that protection. These instances don't need safe for protection.

Here's what I tell my local customers:

If your gun safe is so secure, then why aren't the local banks using them? Surely they'd rather spend $500 on some gun safes than the $100,000 that they spend on those vaults that they use.

When it comes down to it, you do get what you pay for. Sometimes it's better to have a guy like me explain it to you first though. You won't get very much useful information from the guy at the sporting goods store.

 

[Playboypenguin]

Here's what I do know. Insurance companies and many government agencies require UL ratings on their products.

That is not at all true of non-electrical and non-regulated products such as safes. A gunsafe no more needs o be UL rated than do my tennis shoes.

The gunsafe manufacturers pay for the UL rating so they can list the safe as UL rated against failure in a fire. That is when the experiences of inspectors and firemen come into play. I have yet to find a single one that believes the safes do what they say based on their person observations.

The gun safe manufacturers know this too. They play the numbers game. They know that only 1 in a 1000 safes will ever even see a fire. Then if the owner of that one actually goes to the effort to obtain damages from the manufacturer, and not just rely on insurance, they are still in the black. The paying off of the very rare fire claim is worth the added sales the rating and warranty will provide.

There are many sources of this information, but it is not available to the general public for obvious security reasons.

Why is that? Failure rates for cars, door locks, etc are readily available though consumer testing sites.

If your gun safe is so secure, then why aren't the local banks using them?

Because it is a matter of dealing with probabilities and meeting federal requirements for FDIC insurance. Comparing the needs of an individual looking for a safe to protect a few guns from young hands or the common mash and grab burglar to the needs of an istitution like a bank, which is more likely to be the focus of a more professional and sophisticated theft attempt, is comparing apples and oranges.

That is like saying "If your standard SUV is so safe why don't the troops in Iraq drive them around Baghdad instead of the armored hummers?"

 

[a1abdj]

That is not at all true of non-electrical and non-regulated products such as safes. A gunsafe no more needs o be UL rated than do my tennis shoes.

You're right. Gun safes need not be rated, because they can't be. Therefore, they can't be insured in most cases.

The UL safe testing doesn't exist because some gun owners need to store guns. It exist because insurance companies need to know their exposure. If you are storing insured valuables, quite often, your insurance company will dictate you store those valuables in a UL rated safe.

UL doesn't just test safes for their fire resistant abilities. They also test file cabinets, and other freestanding devices. I can assure you that there are far more fireproof file cabinets in use today than there are gun safes. For a business that relies on the protection, and an insurance company responsible for the loss, a UL rated product is being used.

The gunsafe manufacturers pay for the UL rating so they can list the safe as UL rated against failure in a fire. That is when the experiences of inspectors and firemen come into play. I have yet to find a single one that believes the safes do what they say based on their person observations.

There are no gunsafes currently on the market that carry a UL fire rating. This is further proof that you can't just pay the UL for a label. Gun safes can not pass the UL's strict requirements, and therefore, can not be UL rated against fire.

The RSC rating is a burglar rating of sorts, and is issued by the UL. Key words here are "Residential Security Container". The UL doesn't consider them safes either.

Your fire fighter friends are probably right. I have never seen a gun safe survive a serious fire either. But I'm not talking about gun safes, I'm talking about UL rated fire safes. These are two totally different animals.

Why is that? Failure rates for cars, door locks, etc are readily available though consumer testing sites.

To maintain some level of security. If everybody knew how you could open a sentry safe in 30 seconds using a screwdriver, then that would put a lot of people at risk.

The failures discussed include detailed information about drill points and other entry methods that should never be made available to the public.

Because it is a matter of dealing with probabilities and meeting federal requirements for FDIC insurance. Comparing the needs of an individual looking for a safe to protect a few guns from young hands or the common mash and grab burglar to the needs of an istitution like a bank, which is more likely to be the focus of a more professional and sophisticated theft attempt, is comparing apples and oranges.

No it's not. You said that UL ratings don't mean anything. If they don't mean anything, why would they be required?

You further say that no testing is actually done by UL, and the labels are just bought. If this was the case, those UL rated vaults, required by the FDIC, wouldn't really need to meet any security requirements at all. Every manufacturer could just buy the tag and place it on their new cardboard line of vault doors.

That is like saying "If your standard SUV is so safe why don't the troops in Iraq drive them around Baghdad instead of the armored hummers?"

It's really not. Gun safes, for the most part, offer little security when compared to "real safes". Yet everybody tells me how their gun safes will defeat burglary attacks that not even rated safes would withstand.

I'm looking at a photo know in a Cannon catalog. They show a cutting torch cart sitting next to one of their safes, and the paint is burned. Please explain to me how a cutting torch is incapable of cutting through 1/8" steel.

 

[BobK]

Playboy, if you feel the need to justify your ownership of Sentry safes, it is not nessessary. Frankly I don't care. It's is amazing however that you doubt the knowledge and experience of those that work/service these safes on a daily basis.

The locks (mechanical or electric) and bolt works as well as overall design are vastly inferior to just about any US made gun safe. On the battery operated push button type locks, the first thing that breaks in the lock solenoid which mades it impossible for the owner to open unless he cuts it open.

The mechanical locks are'nt much better. The nylon self locking nuts fall off rendering the lock useless. The wheel packs wear faster and break.

There are no relockers on the lock or bolt works. The handles fall off. The bolt works become misaligned so the safe won't open.

When talking gunsafes, the words from firemen, or UL white coats don't mean anything to me. I have seen first hand many, many people that are totally disgusted and upset when their planned hunting trip or range visit is postponed because they can't get their safe open. Then they get more upset when they learn how much it will cost and that there are no replacement parts. Buy what you want. But you will never succeed in convincing me that these safe are worth the trouble. I know better.

Regards.

 

[Playboypenguin]

It's is amazing however that you doubt the knowledge and experience of those that work/service these safes on a daily basis.

I am not doubting his experience or skill working on safes at all. I am informing him that he is incorrect on how UL does it's testing. The onlly reason I know is I went through several days of phone tag with their managers and legal department before finally getting the truth straight from the source.

As for the locks. Mine came with a 10 yr warranty. If they go bad I just call sentry and they repair the safe or supply a new one. I have still never had one go bad myself and never known anyone that has.

I am still open to someone showing concrete evidence that the more expensive gun safes are better. not anecdote...evidence.

This being said, I am still planning on getting one of the nicer safes (preferrably one with the Ruger logo on it) in the near future. Not because I think it will serve the purpose better...just because it looks nicer and is bigger.

If I spend $300 on this safe and it lasts the 10 yr warranty (and I buy a new one every 10 yrs) I am still saving alot of money over buying a $2500 that last me the rest of my life so the nicer ones don't really save any money or work all that much better. They are just nicer. I can buy a Ford or a Lexus. Both will serve it's purpose very well and go just as many miles. One just does it with more style.

 

[Playboypenguin]

To maintain some level of security. If everybody knew how you could open a sentry safe in 30 seconds using a screwdriver, then that would put a lot of people at risk.

Didn't BobK say earlier that opening one was a costly process? Which one of you is correct?

And of course foks get pissed at me when I tell them how much it's going to cost to get the safe open.

I seem to have noticed in my tenure on this baord that once safe dealers get involved in safe discussions it starts being like talking to used car salesmen.

 

[a1abdj]

Didn't BobK say earlier that opening one was a costly process? Which one of you is correct?

I charge $125 an hour, minium two hours, plus expenses.

There are some Sentry safes that can be opened with a hammer and a screwdriver in less time that it will take you to read this reply. Even if I did open it with that method, which I wouldn't because it's unprofessional, I would still charge the $250 plus the $10 for the broken screwdriver.

I have a good friend of mine who is a lawyer and works out on a regular basis. He used to move safes with me when he was going to law school. I've heard he's getting around $300 an hour now, and I'm sure he'd still help somebody move a safe if they were willing to pay for his time.

I once heard that a locksmith opened a safe with one quickly drilled hole. His customer was upset when presented with a $300 bill for 5 minutes worth of work. His customer wanted an itemized bill to justify that $300 charge. He presented a new bill with itemized charges: Drill one hole $5.00, Knowing where to drill that hole $295.00.

I seem to have noticed in my tenure on this baord that once safe dealers get involved in safe discussions it starts being like talking to used car salesmen.

I resent being lumped in with that group. There are many people who sell gun safes. Most of them don't have the training, experience, or equipment that I have invested in. I might sell gun safes, but I also sell $100,000 vaults.

I deliver gun safes for 4 high volume gun safe dealers in my area. If they are safe professionals because they sell safes, why can't they handle their own deliveries? Many gun safe salesman are like used car dealers. I'm more like a full service new car franchise, complete with service department and body shop along side new and used vehicle sales.

I think I have figured out where you were steered wrong:

I do think you may have actually called UL and requeseted information about fire testing performed on gun safes. I think that you were told that the manufacturers did not submit their safes to UL, tests were conducted independantly by the manufacturers, and fire ratings were easily bought. All of those statements are true statements.

The truth remains that all of that has nothing to do with UL. That is how many of these manufacturers get their ratings from independant testing facilities such as Omega Point. UL has not certified any gun safe as a fire rated container.

What I have told you is also true. Any safe that does have a UL tag has in fact been submitted to UL for testing or review. All fire safes are tested, and some burglary units are built to standard specs with standard materials and don't need individual testing.

So I don't think that you were wrongly informed, I simply think you've got it backwards.

 

[BobK]

A ten year warranty on a Sentry safe is like a ten year warranty on a Yugo!!

WHO is going to pay for shipping to and from the factory? The bottom line is this. In my professional opinion, your safe is a piece of crap.

I'm sick of ignorant know-it-alls who try to justify buying the worst piece of junk safe to put thousands of dollars worth of guns in them. Kind of like parking a Ferarri out on the street. It does'nt make sense. Same goes for the dumb business owners who put all their cash in these safes and then can't get them open the next day to open for business. Sure they saved money when they bought the safe, But how much did they lose when they could'nt open for business with no cash!

As far as the car salesman statement, you must be as dumb as you sound. All you have proven so far is your ignorance and lack of USEFUL knowledge regarding gunsafes.

Our discussion is over.


Anyone else who feels the need to buy CHEAP feel free to do so. It WILL cost you later. Buying cheap and buying smart are two different things.

It goes to show that some of us think differently. And then again some of us don't think at all.

 

[ShootemDown]

Mine is cheap, but it worked for years and years. The mechanism is simple. you put the key in, and you turn. the bolts retract.

I does the job, keeps the honest people honest. Local law requires a "safe" if you own more than 4 handguns.

you dont need a safe that can repel professional thieves, those costs thousands of dollars.

a cheap safe is good enough to keep out your children, the super who comes in to fix your toilet and your relatives who stay the night.

If you worry about real theft, insurance is the answer, not a $10,000 safe. (for the homeowner who have regular guns)

 

[Marvinsson]

a1abdj,

On a semi-related topic, I have a safe from Irwin Safe Company in Albuquerque, NM, and it's not fireproof. Is there a way that I can add sheetrock or something to it to make it a firesafe, or would I be wasting my time & money?

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.

 

[a1abdj]

Mine is cheap, but it worked for years and years. The mechanism is simple. you put the key in, and you turn. the bolts retract.

I sell cheap safes. I also sell very expensive safes. I have seen failures on both types of safes. With that said, the cheaper safes are more of a gamble. This is true for mechanical function, and the protection they offer.

I don't have any problem with people who buy cheap safes, so long as they are an educated consumer, and are willing to accept that risk. It seems that a lot of people who sell these cheaper safes are selling the consumer a false sense of security.

I does the job, keeps the honest people honest. Local law requires a "safe" if you own more than 4 handguns

There are many laws around the country that regulate the safe storage of firearms. In California, one of the best known examples is the Department of Justice's requirement. The law not only mentions a safe, but goes on to describe the features a safe must have. If the safe doesn't have those features, you are in violation of the law. This is why many safe catalogs mention the term "CA DOJ Compliant".

a cheap safe is good enough to keep out your children, the super who comes in to fix your toilet and your relatives who stay the night.

I agree completely. I often suggest simple locking cabinets to these types of customers. A dead bolt on a closet door will also work in this situation. A safe isn't really needed at all. Not even a cheap one.

On a semi-related topic, I have a safe from Irwin Safe Company in Albuquerque, NM, and it's not fireproof. Is there a way that I can add sheetrock or something to it to make it a firesafe, or would I be wasting my time & money?

You can add X gypsum boardto the interior of the safe. This is a UL rated fireboard sold at all of the home improvement stores, and required by building code to be used for garage walls that share a wall with a home. Each layer of 5/8" board will give you approximately 30 minutes of protection in a 1,200 degree fire.

In reality, this type of fireproofing offers limited protection. It certainly wouldn't hurt, but it also may not ever help.

 

[Marvinsson]

a1abdj,

Thanks for the info. What is the chance that a safe in a poured concrete basement will ever be subjected to the type of temperatures we're talking about?

 

[shamus005]

thanks for the advice, everyone. It's enlightening to know that "non-gun" fire safes can rust your guns due to their fireproofing.

the search will continue for an economical solution to my dilemma.

 

[Playboypenguin]

As far as the car salesman statement, you must be as dumb as you sound. All you have proven so far is your ignorance and lack of USEFUL knowledge regarding gunsafes.

Our discussion is over.

Gee, name calling...classy.

Guess the used car salesman comment must have hit very close to home.

 

[Playboypenguin]

I don't have any problem with people who buy cheap safes, so long as they are an educated consumer, and are willing to accept that risk. It seems that a lot of people who sell these cheaper safes are selling the consumer a false sense of security

I bought my safes to just keep them out of the hands of the common criminal until I can get a better one later (or live my dream and build a secure gun room in the garage).

I agree completely that a nicer safe is probably better quality.

I do not agree when people try and make it sound like the Sentry safes will not work. I have had similar safes back home that I have had for 20 years and they still work. So I just base my decisions on personal experience. I also just buy Ford's and have never had a single mechanical issue in 15 years. Some people have other experiences.

In some ways I wish the ones I have here would go bad. it would give me the push I need to either get something more attractive or build the gunroom.

I would like either a safe or a gunroom that has a digital lock on it. I stayed away from them on the cheaper safes because of exactely what you said earlier. I do not trust the cheaper electronic locks.

 

[waterhouse]

a1abdj, thank you for your comments, they have been very informative.