Senseless?

Off topic... but...

What is the deal with arrows?
presumably it is the weight of the arrow that provides the punch.
Although having said that, modern arrows are pretty damn light....

As for the killing mechanism, those broad head arrow tips do a real slice and dice job, but I have often wondered about getting them past bone, like ribs or the shoulder blade...???
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With an arrow it's more about proper placement, and allowing the broadhead to do its job, ie, slicing through whatever comes its way. And while the arrows are made now out of aluminum and carbon fiber, thats more for strength. They're still made to a certain grain weight. You also have to factor in the draw weight of the bow.

As for broadheads hitting bone, most will just glide around the bone, but there are some that will go through. Muzzy MX-4 You'll find here, one of the testers at bowcountry was putting MX-4's through the leg bone of a cow...
 
I do about 90% of my Deer hunting with a handgun(And I hunt 4 days a week when the season is on). I use a T/C Contender in 30-30 most of the time. I also carry a M629 for close up shots. I hunt in a stand and if I can get a shot from 10-40 yds I use the M629 with open sights. From 40-150yds its the T/C with a scope. I do handload for both so I can build my own rounds for the 30-30.

Oh yea when I rifle hunt I use a 30-30 or a 308. It just depends on where I am going. If I have to make or will be in a position to make a 200yd shot the 308 goes with me. But if I am hunting where the shots are 100yds and in the 30-30 is the gun. The only time I use a rifle is if I am hunting on Ft Bragg(They don't allow Handgun hunting) But I don't hunt there all that much anymore.

For a South Eastern Deer hunter the 30-30 is Just right. I like them so much I have 3 of them:) They are very easy to load for. the brass is all over the place. Components are plentiful and I have never had one that would not shoot inside 1.5" at 100yds. The most accurate one I have is a Savage 340 with a peep sight. With 130gr Hornaday Spire points it is a real killer and very accurate. My Winchester 94AE with a 2-7x scope will put all 6, 130gr Speer Hot Core bullets into a 4" Circle at 150yds from a field rest.

I hunt in Montana also. I use my contender in 30-30 or the 308. I am over the big Magnums. I used to hunt with a 300 WM but I do not see the advantage of it inside normal hunting ranges. I love the Lever action Rifle. My 308 in a Winchester 88 and a Savage 99.

The 30-30 is a proven Killer on Deer, hogs and other game. When I hear folks bashing it I know they don't know squat.
 
I think it's funny when you read one thread that says the 357 is marginal for deer, but then in the next thread everyone praises it for knockdown power and one shot stops in SD situations. I know they're not the same scenarios, but I find it hard to beileve that you can rely on a 357 to take down a 200lb human attacker but then you're not supposed to trust it to take down a deer. Yeah, I know that an intruder would be shot a lot closer and all that, but come on. The magnum rage is just marketing at its finest. I looked at the used rifle rack at my local shop the other day, and I think 8 out of the 10 I looked at were either 300 or 7mm mags. And around here, deer rarely get over 175# live weight, and people rarely shoot over 100 yards. I personally have never shot a deer beyond about 60-75 yards. 357, 30-30, either one will take a deer if you do your part.
 
What is the deal with arrows?
presumably it is the weight of the arrow that provides the punch.
Although having said that, modern arrows are pretty damn light....
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Arrows don't kill with "punch".

I shoot a 2008 Hoyt Katera XL, which shoots a 370 grain arrows at 264fps.

Do the math:

(264X264X370)/450240=57.28ft/lbs of energy.

As a matter of comparison, a 22LR generates over 300ft/lbs of energy and a 12ga slug can generate over 3000ft/lbs.

Arrows kills by hemorrhage. Loss of blood pressure to the brain and/or lack of oxygen, depending on exactly what is hit.
 
I have found this thread fascinating. I have worked with avid hunters all my adult life and I have noticed the shift from the 30-30 to the 7mm mags, 300 mags, and 308. I always wondered why that was. It seemed from the hunting stories I was hearing these men took a lot of game with their 30-30's.
 
Hm, you're right.... I was thinking that the high end stuff was just a smidge over 300.... just a smidge over 200 is correct.

Still, more than double the any bow on the market until the last year or so, more than quadruple anything that was even made 10 or so years ago!
 
I've never read an article where anyone ever said a 30-30 wouldn't do the job it was designed to do. I see these threads a lot where people are talking about how great the 30-30 is and they are tired of it being overlooked.

I've never seen anyone do that. I have read articles where people have pointed out that the round has limitations, it does. They all do. But every article I have ever read has praised the round when used within its limitations. Even though it is not the best round for ranges over 150 yards or so and there are better choices for game larger than deer, it is perfectly fine for at least 90% of all big game hunting.

I think that when some writers point out that there are better choices, some take that as a condemnation of the round. It's not, it is just a fact. Just because something is perfectly adequate does not mean something else is better. Some people are satisfied with adequate, others want better. Neither is wrong.
 
Punch

Peetzakilla - Arrows don't kill with "punch".
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You might have missed what I was trying to say.
What pushes the arrow head all the way through the target?
(either a bucket of sand, or an animal, that will stop a bullet)

An arrow is as likely as not to either completely penetrate, or finally stop with the fletching being the only thing still left in the animal and the rest of the arrow hanging out the other side. (depending on the animal, arrow, range etc of course)

According to the ft/lbs formula an arrow isn't terribly impressive.
But seeing what one does to a target sure is.
 
I shoot my compound at 80 lbs, and let me tell you that NO BROAD HEAD get's through a shoulder or a Hip bone. The arrow ticks for about 50 or less bounces, they bleed for about a half mile then dry up... I've seen it year after year from people that forget (like I did) that the longer the shot, the better the chance the deer HEARS your bow THAWUMP then you release... The deer moves 2 feet in the time it takes the arrow to get there and you get a hip bone shot.... ( saw the same deer 3 weeks later with a bloody hip but no limp nor infection, thankfully....)

Bows are Excellent cutters, that's all they're designed for. Punch is only there to deliver the head on the shaft...
 
well, caliber wars will forever rage on. Way back when, my great-grandaddy told me he liked to hunt Fl whitetail with a 32-20 because it didn't tear up the meat too bad. Nowadays, people hunt game with cannons. A 30-30 will kill a deer. Everyone should know that. My buddy John bought a 7mm rem mag this year, and is convinced he's gonna kill a deer with it. Seems like WAAAY over kill to me, but to each his own
 
You might have missed what I was trying to say.
What pushes the arrow head all the way through the target?
(either a bucket of sand, or an animal, that will stop a bullet)

An arrow is as likely as not to either completely penetrate, or finally stop with the fletching being the only thing still left in the animal and the rest of the arrow hanging out the other side. (depending on the animal, arrow, range etc of course)

According to the ft/lbs formula an arrow isn't terribly impressive.
But seeing what one does to a target sure is.
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The simple answer is that arrows are not designed to dissipate energy within the target. They're designed to penetrate. Bullets use up energy expanding and/or generating hydrostatic shock waves in the target. An arrow is tipped with a razor blade and a tip that cuts a hole bigger than what is behind it. The friction is minimal. Very hard full metal jacket type bullets also penetrate very well. They don't dump energy into the target, similar to an arrow.

Simply put, "what pushes an arrow through the target?" Momentum. Momentum that is not "wasted" on damaging the arrow or, beyond the direct impact area, the animal either.
 
I never cared to hunt deer with a handgun. But I dont see nothing wrong with it, if it is done correctly. Some folks are into it, and are very good at it. Same with bow hunters I know and seen some very good ones. Or muzzeloading which I do. There is no doubt it can not do what a rifle caliber can. But at the correct range, and shot placement which is key with anything they work great at taking deer. I guess it comes down to what you like, and are into. It's all good if done correctly in my book even though I dont pistol or bow hunt for deer. You are correct about the spec's on comparing a pistol bullet to a rifle bullet.
 
Skill and shot placement.

Many decades ago, a one-armed man showed up at a deer-lease ranch near New Braunfels, Texas. He was planning on using a 6" K-38 S&W. The rancher expressed concern about crippled deer. The man walked over to the benchrest and cranked off six rounds toward the 100-yard target. Six hits, about a six-inch group. The rancher nodded, smiled, and walked away.
 
This must be a Halloween subject, as all the millions of dead deer from over a century are supposed to be up and walking around because the .30-30 didn't really kill them after all. Somehow it seems to me a lot of people would have starved if their .30-30 wasn't putting deer on the table; they ate PLENTY of venison.
 
but I have often wondered about getting them past bone, like ribs or the shoulder blade...???
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My hunting partner killed two deer with one shot using a bow. Went through the ribcage on the first and almost through the second. He also killed a bull elk and the arrow went through the elk's lungs and lodged in to a tree so deep we had to chop it out with a hatchet.

But, I can tell you that if you hit the shoulder too far forward on a big buck you are in some trouble and if you hit it on an elk you are simply out of luck.
 
Skill and shot placement.
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That about sums up the whole caliber,arrow,bolt,broadhead wars. A deer is a very easy animal to kill in the sense that you don`t have a tough hide nor alot of heavy bone to penetrate taking the right shot. Knowing the capabilities of the weapon of choice and more important our limitations with that same weapon is key. One of the hardest things to do is let a Boone and Crocket buck walk cause he doesn`t present a good shot. I`d rather wait another day than sling an arrow further than I`m capable of. Questioning whether a 30-30 or a .357 pistol is capable of killing a deer is IMO ridiculous. Sure they can but they have their own capabilities and have to be used as such. After some thought, I think "Skill,Shot Placement and Responsibility" would sum up the 'wars of weapons/calibers' debate.
 
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I just dont understand anymore. Way back when the 30-30 was the ideal elk rifle not to mention deer. Now people are using big bad magnums for deer and i bet most have never shot past 100yds with em. I use the puny 7.62x39 for deer currently. About the same as a 30-30 and i never had a problem. I also carry a 1911 loaded with buffalo bores 230gr hardcast and have killed 3 deer with it to date but all were within 20yards and none went more than a few yards.
 
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