Green Lantern
New member
What are advantages, disadvantages, or your favorite choices?
Why semi-auto over pump in a rifle?
Why semi-auto over pump in a rifle?
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Semi-auto VS pump
- Thread starter Green Lantern
- Start date
Advantages of a Semiauto
Faster
Disadvantages
May be finicky with ammunition
More expensive
Pump advantages
Shots any load, hot or not
Pump disadvantages
Slower
Can short stroke it
I have a Mossberg 930 SPX. It’s nothing fancy but it shoots all ammo. Hot stuff. Low brass. High brass. Never had issues with reliability. Same goes for my Mossy 835.
I have an FN police tactical pump shotgun. Traded a knife for it. Works well. I have never short stroked it, but it is possible if you’re in a rush.
I have a Benelli M2 which is awesome apart from the 922r requirements if you ad an extended magazine. It is finicky with ammo. Only likes hot 00. That’s fine since it’s all that I use.
I had a Saiga 12. It was great but it was a pain to clean so I stopped. Reliable but only liked hot ammo, too. Didn’t stay open after the last shot. Had to do the AK rock to put in the magazines.
I had a Vepr 12. Shot any ammo. The magazine worked like an AR-15. Loved it. But it was big and bulky.
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Faster
Disadvantages
May be finicky with ammunition
More expensive
Pump advantages
Shots any load, hot or not
Pump disadvantages
Slower
Can short stroke it
I have a Mossberg 930 SPX. It’s nothing fancy but it shoots all ammo. Hot stuff. Low brass. High brass. Never had issues with reliability. Same goes for my Mossy 835.
I have an FN police tactical pump shotgun. Traded a knife for it. Works well. I have never short stroked it, but it is possible if you’re in a rush.
I have a Benelli M2 which is awesome apart from the 922r requirements if you ad an extended magazine. It is finicky with ammo. Only likes hot 00. That’s fine since it’s all that I use.
I had a Saiga 12. It was great but it was a pain to clean so I stopped. Reliable but only liked hot ammo, too. Didn’t stay open after the last shot. Had to do the AK rock to put in the magazines.
I had a Vepr 12. Shot any ammo. The magazine worked like an AR-15. Loved it. But it was big and bulky.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
The OP said 'rifle', not a shotgun. Now if he means rifle vs. shotgun, that different.
As far as pump rifles - they are quite rare nowadays.
There was an attempt by Remington to sell 223 pumps to police because:
1. They didn't look nasty like ARs.
2. Cops had experience with pump shotguns and couldn't figure out ARs. That became silly with all the ARs out there and all the veterans.
Some pistol caliber pumps existed for a bit, but they are out of production. IIRC, that they weren't that good.
As far as pump rifles - they are quite rare nowadays.
There was an attempt by Remington to sell 223 pumps to police because:
1. They didn't look nasty like ARs.
2. Cops had experience with pump shotguns and couldn't figure out ARs. That became silly with all the ARs out there and all the veterans.
Some pistol caliber pumps existed for a bit, but they are out of production. IIRC, that they weren't that good.
In PA, up until this year, you couldn't hunt with a semi-auto rifle. I bagged my 1st buck with a Remington Gamemaster 141 in 35 Remington. Like Glen E. Meyer said, pump rifles aren't very common anymore. My Remington dates back to 1945. It was my grandfather's.
For range or battle rifle I would lean towards semi auto. For hunting, I'm perfectly happy with my pump.
For range or battle rifle I would lean towards semi auto. For hunting, I'm perfectly happy with my pump.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Semi-auto.
From a practical point of view there are really only 2 choices in rifles. Bolt guns or semi-autos. I have no issue with the nostalgia of traditional lever actions and have quite a few myself. The same can said of single shots, pump actions or any other action type. But neither levers or pump rifles offer any advantages over a bolt gun, and several disadvantages.
Despite what many believe neither pump guns nor levers are significantly faster for aimed repeat shots than bolt guns. From a standing offhand shooting position pumps and levers are slightly faster for UN-AIMED fire. But if shooting against a stopwatch with the requirement that you actually hit a target with multiple shots there is no difference. And from prone or any other supported position pumps and lever actions are significantly slower than bolt guns. For a variety of reasons bolt guns will always be less expensive, lighter, more accurate, and more reliable than other types as well.
If aimed rapid fire is needed a semi-auto is really the only way to go.
Pump action shotguns are different than pump action rifles. Shotguns are not aimed, they are pointed and are almost never fired from supported positions. Shotguns operate at much lower pressures and pump action shotguns do a good job of cycling shotshells. That same reliability just doesn't carry over to pump action rifles that operate at much higher pressures.
Despite what many believe neither pump guns nor levers are significantly faster for aimed repeat shots than bolt guns. From a standing offhand shooting position pumps and levers are slightly faster for UN-AIMED fire. But if shooting against a stopwatch with the requirement that you actually hit a target with multiple shots there is no difference. And from prone or any other supported position pumps and lever actions are significantly slower than bolt guns. For a variety of reasons bolt guns will always be less expensive, lighter, more accurate, and more reliable than other types as well.
If aimed rapid fire is needed a semi-auto is really the only way to go.
Pump action shotguns are different than pump action rifles. Shotguns are not aimed, they are pointed and are almost never fired from supported positions. Shotguns operate at much lower pressures and pump action shotguns do a good job of cycling shotshells. That same reliability just doesn't carry over to pump action rifles that operate at much higher pressures.
JoeSixpack
New member
Pump's you don't have to worry about weak loads not cycling the action.. that's your job.. This could be especially useful on 22 rim fire which runs a whole gambit of loads. otherwise I don't think it has any real advantage.
I suppose if you had one suppressed it would be a bit more quiet like.. like a bolt action you could choose when to cycle the action.. but that's pretty moot.
Only pump rifles I ever seen was made by Taurus and I never actually seen them in the shops just online.
I think they've been discontinued but the few I talked to that had them liked them quite a bit.
I suppose if you had one suppressed it would be a bit more quiet like.. like a bolt action you could choose when to cycle the action.. but that's pretty moot.
Only pump rifles I ever seen was made by Taurus and I never actually seen them in the shops just online.
I think they've been discontinued but the few I talked to that had them liked them quite a bit.
ligonierbill
New member
Pennsylvania only approved rimfire semi-autos for small game. The law now gives the Game Commission the authority to extend that, but that's all that is approved for now. So, pumps ("Amish automatics") are popular. The biggest advantage of an autoloader, in my humble opinion, is not having to move anything but your sight picture for a followup. For well aimed fire, it's a very small advantage. Unless you're in the "As long as there's lead in the air, there's hope" camp.
In the period when pump shotguns ruled the industry, using a pump action rifle was perfectly logical--muscle memory and all that. Now, not so much. Many of the "shotgun games" are developing O/U or semi-auto shotguns as the end all of scattergunning.
Many shooters don't hunt or hunt often so their choice of shotgun is tailored to their choice of games. Choosing a rifle isn't really tied to the shotgun and if it is, the choice leans toward a semi-auto.
Many shooters don't hunt or hunt often so their choice of shotgun is tailored to their choice of games. Choosing a rifle isn't really tied to the shotgun and if it is, the choice leans toward a semi-auto.
Biggest advantage of a semi is not having to move the rifle from your shoulder for a second shot. And using some of the gasses to cycle the action, thereby reducing felt recoil.
Pumps can be used that way too, but you have to move to do so. Pumps do not use some of the recoil or gasses to operate the action either. Hence, the felt recoil will be more than a semi's.
"...pump rifles aren't very common anymore..." Pretty much Remington's only and a few used SA Inc. or IMI Timber Wolves.
Pumps can be used that way too, but you have to move to do so. Pumps do not use some of the recoil or gasses to operate the action either. Hence, the felt recoil will be more than a semi's.
"...pump rifles aren't very common anymore..." Pretty much Remington's only and a few used SA Inc. or IMI Timber Wolves.
turkeestalker
New member
If we're talking rim fires, I've well over a dozen .22 rifles, more semi-automatics than levers, bolts, or pumps.
For hunting, the semi wins for the reasons stated regarding speed and maintaining sight picture for follow ups if needed.
For plinking and all around fun however, the other options are my preference and my pump actions top that list.
I bought one of those Taurus 62s last year and absolutely love it.
It's a reasonably decent copy of the Winchester 62 designed by John Browning, less that ridiculous safety lever on top of the receiver. *yuck*
It just points and shoots great with seemingly any ammo you put down the tube, some of my semi-autos are finicky about what you feed them.
It is much smoother and handles better than my Henry, and with it I don't have to worry about wear and tear on my Stevens Visible Loader, which is my favorite.
Semi is better for business, but give me a pump for fun.
For hunting, the semi wins for the reasons stated regarding speed and maintaining sight picture for follow ups if needed.
For plinking and all around fun however, the other options are my preference and my pump actions top that list.
Only pump rifles I ever seen was made by Taurus.....the few I talked to that had them liked them quite a bit.
I bought one of those Taurus 62s last year and absolutely love it.
It's a reasonably decent copy of the Winchester 62 designed by John Browning, less that ridiculous safety lever on top of the receiver. *yuck*
It just points and shoots great with seemingly any ammo you put down the tube, some of my semi-autos are finicky about what you feed them.
It is much smoother and handles better than my Henry, and with it I don't have to worry about wear and tear on my Stevens Visible Loader, which is my favorite.
Semi is better for business, but give me a pump for fun.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
bandanabandit1
New member
I always thought that manually operated actions were a little bit more reliable than semi's.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
Mechanically. THe problem is you introduce more opportunity for operator error. ANd the operator is usually the most likely source of problems in almost any system.I always thought that manually operated actions were a little bit more reliable than semi's.
I'm not sure about rifles, but I have seen plenty of amateurs short chuck pump shotguns when shooting doubles to say if you have to ask the question semi-auto is probably the best choice by a wide margin.
bamaranger
New member
loaded question
The question as posed in the OP covers a vast amount of territory. As to reliability, I'd suggest that the two are equal. Same with accuracy. As noted, the pump is dependent upon correct operation by the shooter. But an autoloader is dependent upon ammunition, and to a certain extent, the magazine. And I also believe that a sporting auto requires a bit more attention to maintenance. I've seen many of the Remington 740 family with pitted chambers that were not to be trusted at all. And while we're at it, let's rememeber that there is really only one domestic pump centerfire still in production, the Remington 7600.
We're talking centerfires sporters in the above paragraph, but when we step over to pump rimfires, there's more to consider. Remington still makes the Fieldmaster, Henry has a pump, and there are the Taurus/Win clones. Does Rossi make a Win clone too? I'd give them all equal reliability v. the autoloader. Accuracy causes me to ponder. There are some very accurate Ruger 10/22's with heavy barrels, and tweaked triggers. But I have never heard or seen a pump rifle, rimfire or centerfire, worked over for match accuracy.
And then there's the tactical/military side of the semiauto family. With chromed bores and chambers, beefy extractors and ejectors, and in some cases, (AK) bombproof mags, I see them in a different light. Designed to function in the extremes, the tac/mil family is in another class above the semiauto sporter. Also, the GI semi's have been tweaked for accuracy over the years, the Garand, the M14, and the AR, have all been "accurized". Not so the civilian slide action.
Pros and Cons?
-Cost is all over the board. You can buy a perfectly new 10/22 for about $200 , but a Remington Fieldmaster Pump will take $500 (NIB prices). You can purchase a Remington 7600 for under $1000, but a Springfield M1A will cost you in the neighborhood of $1500.
-I've never experienced a Remington Fieldmaster or Speedmaster, 740... centerfire, 760...centerfire that had what I would truely call a "rifleman's trigger"
-I've heard some say the slide handle can rattle on the Remington pumps and spook game. The slide on bamaboy's Mossberg 835 (shotgun) is noisy enough to spook gobblers, if that's any comparison.
-the pump centerfire has a domesticated look to most folks. The tac/mil style rifles may raise an eyebrow at camp, or from those not in the family
-a tac/mil rifle in .30 cal tends to be heavier than a comparable sporter
-as stated, the edge in accuracy goes to the semiauto (tac/mil) centerfire or rimfire
-for aimed, accurate, fast fire, the semi wins, hands down
In closing, I like pump rifles and started my deer career with a worn Remington Model 14 and still have it. But I never bought another pump centerfire. Every time I take one of my tac/mil .30's afield, I'm reminded on the way back to the Bronco about why I like light portable rifles. My bolt rifles are across the board, have better triggers and display better accuracy, than any of my semiauto tac/mils. The most accurate .22 I own is a bolt....and it feeds terribly from its chinzy magazine.
The question as posed in the OP covers a vast amount of territory. As to reliability, I'd suggest that the two are equal. Same with accuracy. As noted, the pump is dependent upon correct operation by the shooter. But an autoloader is dependent upon ammunition, and to a certain extent, the magazine. And I also believe that a sporting auto requires a bit more attention to maintenance. I've seen many of the Remington 740 family with pitted chambers that were not to be trusted at all. And while we're at it, let's rememeber that there is really only one domestic pump centerfire still in production, the Remington 7600.
We're talking centerfires sporters in the above paragraph, but when we step over to pump rimfires, there's more to consider. Remington still makes the Fieldmaster, Henry has a pump, and there are the Taurus/Win clones. Does Rossi make a Win clone too? I'd give them all equal reliability v. the autoloader. Accuracy causes me to ponder. There are some very accurate Ruger 10/22's with heavy barrels, and tweaked triggers. But I have never heard or seen a pump rifle, rimfire or centerfire, worked over for match accuracy.
And then there's the tactical/military side of the semiauto family. With chromed bores and chambers, beefy extractors and ejectors, and in some cases, (AK) bombproof mags, I see them in a different light. Designed to function in the extremes, the tac/mil family is in another class above the semiauto sporter. Also, the GI semi's have been tweaked for accuracy over the years, the Garand, the M14, and the AR, have all been "accurized". Not so the civilian slide action.
Pros and Cons?
-Cost is all over the board. You can buy a perfectly new 10/22 for about $200 , but a Remington Fieldmaster Pump will take $500 (NIB prices). You can purchase a Remington 7600 for under $1000, but a Springfield M1A will cost you in the neighborhood of $1500.
-I've never experienced a Remington Fieldmaster or Speedmaster, 740... centerfire, 760...centerfire that had what I would truely call a "rifleman's trigger"
-I've heard some say the slide handle can rattle on the Remington pumps and spook game. The slide on bamaboy's Mossberg 835 (shotgun) is noisy enough to spook gobblers, if that's any comparison.
-the pump centerfire has a domesticated look to most folks. The tac/mil style rifles may raise an eyebrow at camp, or from those not in the family
-a tac/mil rifle in .30 cal tends to be heavier than a comparable sporter
-as stated, the edge in accuracy goes to the semiauto (tac/mil) centerfire or rimfire
-for aimed, accurate, fast fire, the semi wins, hands down
In closing, I like pump rifles and started my deer career with a worn Remington Model 14 and still have it. But I never bought another pump centerfire. Every time I take one of my tac/mil .30's afield, I'm reminded on the way back to the Bronco about why I like light portable rifles. My bolt rifles are across the board, have better triggers and display better accuracy, than any of my semiauto tac/mils. The most accurate .22 I own is a bolt....and it feeds terribly from its chinzy magazine.
The OP said 'rifle', not a shotgun. Now if he means rifle vs. shotgun, that different.
As far as pump rifles - they are quite rare nowadays.
There was an attempt by Remington to sell 223 pumps to police because:
1. They didn't look nasty like ARs.
2. Cops had experience with pump shotguns and couldn't figure out ARs. That became silly with all the ARs out there and all the veterans.
Some pistol caliber pumps existed for a bit, but they are out of production. IIRC, that they weren't that good.
Oops. Read the post too quickly. Sorry about that.
I’m familiar with lever action but not a pump action rifle.[emoji23]
Instagram: MuzzleblastMD
We can use the fallacy that the masses are usually correct and say that the absolutely overwhelming preference for semiautomatic rifles over pump, even if you leave out paramilitary types, shows that a pump is inferior to a semiautomatic.
With shotguns, a pump seems to be a default choice, so it must be better.
The action itself is likely to be practically identical, the difference will be the mechanism that cycles the bolt, whether a gas operated system will be more reliable than a manual action that uses much stronger methods to cram it back and forth.
I believe that accuracy will be generally equal. The semiautomatic will prevent having to fool around reloading. A hunter will nut have to deal with the noise of cycling the action, but every other action, no matter how quickly done, will make a separate noise.
With shotguns, a pump seems to be a default choice, so it must be better.
The action itself is likely to be practically identical, the difference will be the mechanism that cycles the bolt, whether a gas operated system will be more reliable than a manual action that uses much stronger methods to cram it back and forth.
I believe that accuracy will be generally equal. The semiautomatic will prevent having to fool around reloading. A hunter will nut have to deal with the noise of cycling the action, but every other action, no matter how quickly done, will make a separate noise.