Arsenal AK's are indeed the "gold standard" of the Kalashnikov-type guns, but it needn't be quite so expensive to be a decent gun. Century AK's are typically much cheaper and can actually be quite good and functional, if you know what to look for. The fit and finish won't be as nice, of course.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Semi-auto rifle choices
- Thread starter barefoot
- Start date
Ridge_Runner_5
New member
I can't see what the appeal of an AK is. And I can't see the appeal of an AR/M4.
There are sooooo many really good rifles out there.
Well with an AR you can start out a new shooter with something like a .22 upper, then go up to 9mm, .45, .223, 7.62x39 and even up to .50BMG using the same serial numbered lower receiver.
Quote:
An AR-pattern gun is not on the list for a couple reasons: 1) I don't like the charging handle where it is and 2) its generally known as a bit more high-maintenance than the AKs and Minis, and the SHTF aspect calls for something more durable/reliable.
Everyone has their opinion. Having used the M16 for my entire 22 year career in the Reserves, and hunted with a HK91, Rem 700, and Win 94, the AR is superior IMHO.
1) You only use the charging handle in the wire so to speak - then you step out into the unsecured area fully locked and loaded, safety in the position your SOP and ROE requires. With a 30 round mag and bolt hold open, you can literally go thru ten thirty round mags - a basic soldiers load - 300 rounds - before needing to use the charging handle again. Quite the opposite of a bolt action or lever, where you use it every time for every shot no matter what. That's what a self loading rifle does best - charging handles are almost unused. It's all that pesky unloading in our urbanized world that makes them necessary.
2) The AR is as high maintenance as you make it. Two specific rifles come to mind, the first is "Filthy 14," a carbine course loaner, which has gone over 50,000 rounds with just some wiping down and lube. Hasn't had a rod down the bore ever, just a few normal parts changed out from wear. The other is Mike Pannone's experiment to shoot a semi auto milspec M4gery dry, no lube, until it stopped. It took 2,500 rounds, about 10 basic loads of ammo, or about 7 days of intense combat. No soldier would go one day without a quick wipedown and lube, daily. The maintenance "issue" with AR's is basically perpetrated by shooters who won't shoot full power ammo, and expect them to be cleaner than a surgery theatre. Guns, like engines, get dirty. It's the environmental sludge that stops them, and that rates after mags and ammo in the list of stoppages.
3) SHTF is a lot more about the shooter - any gun can be misused to the point of jamming. A shooter in panic will load mags upside down or backwards, not clean mud from the flash hider, expect the gun to operate MOA when pumping a 130 beats a minute heart rate after running repeatedly with 80 pounds of gear over a kilometer. If you don't train until you can't get it wrong, NO weapon will ever survive the bungling of a desperate user.
Sorry the best gun was cut from the list. Again, I used them side by side for decades, the other guns were ok, but it was the issue M16's that never failed me after years of use on a fairly equal basis. Those high maintenance civilian guns continued to rust and corrode, and the new AR I built won't - nitrided barrels are more corrosion resistant than phosphate, and 6.8SPC gets the job done on deer and hogs. I hope to realize the same success as thousands of others using it.
An AR-pattern gun is not on the list for a couple reasons: 1) I don't like the charging handle where it is and 2) its generally known as a bit more high-maintenance than the AKs and Minis, and the SHTF aspect calls for something more durable/reliable.
Everyone has their opinion. Having used the M16 for my entire 22 year career in the Reserves, and hunted with a HK91, Rem 700, and Win 94, the AR is superior IMHO.
1) You only use the charging handle in the wire so to speak - then you step out into the unsecured area fully locked and loaded, safety in the position your SOP and ROE requires. With a 30 round mag and bolt hold open, you can literally go thru ten thirty round mags - a basic soldiers load - 300 rounds - before needing to use the charging handle again. Quite the opposite of a bolt action or lever, where you use it every time for every shot no matter what. That's what a self loading rifle does best - charging handles are almost unused. It's all that pesky unloading in our urbanized world that makes them necessary.
2) The AR is as high maintenance as you make it. Two specific rifles come to mind, the first is "Filthy 14," a carbine course loaner, which has gone over 50,000 rounds with just some wiping down and lube. Hasn't had a rod down the bore ever, just a few normal parts changed out from wear. The other is Mike Pannone's experiment to shoot a semi auto milspec M4gery dry, no lube, until it stopped. It took 2,500 rounds, about 10 basic loads of ammo, or about 7 days of intense combat. No soldier would go one day without a quick wipedown and lube, daily. The maintenance "issue" with AR's is basically perpetrated by shooters who won't shoot full power ammo, and expect them to be cleaner than a surgery theatre. Guns, like engines, get dirty. It's the environmental sludge that stops them, and that rates after mags and ammo in the list of stoppages.
3) SHTF is a lot more about the shooter - any gun can be misused to the point of jamming. A shooter in panic will load mags upside down or backwards, not clean mud from the flash hider, expect the gun to operate MOA when pumping a 130 beats a minute heart rate after running repeatedly with 80 pounds of gear over a kilometer. If you don't train until you can't get it wrong, NO weapon will ever survive the bungling of a desperate user.
Sorry the best gun was cut from the list. Again, I used them side by side for decades, the other guns were ok, but it was the issue M16's that never failed me after years of use on a fairly equal basis. Those high maintenance civilian guns continued to rust and corrode, and the new AR I built won't - nitrided barrels are more corrosion resistant than phosphate, and 6.8SPC gets the job done on deer and hogs. I hope to realize the same success as thousands of others using it.
Last edited:
If it must be a semi, here's a vote for the Mini-30, just not at 8 bills plus.
Agree, that price is way out of line.
The new Tactical Mini-30 has fixed most of my objections to the rifle. And now Ruger is actually selling factory high caps to the masses. I don't think I would buy one of the generic old style ones but the new ones are desirable.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_59_80/products_id/69842
If they would start making the Tactical version in 6.8 and also make a factory high cap version specifically for it, I would have to buy it for sure. There are lots of things to like about 7.62x39 but my experiences with 6.8 have been very positive.
Imagine how many more Mini-14's would have been sold over the years if they used AR-15 magazines. And it is the same thing with a Mini-14 in 6.8. If I could use my AR 6.8 magazines, I would be all over it.
Gregg
2) its generally known as a bit more high-maintenance than the AKs and Minis,
And yet _somehow_ the Army and Marines have soldiered on with it for all these years! I carried an M16 for eight years myself and never had a malfunction.
I understand you are comparing it to an AK but don't kid yourself. The AR platform is more than robust enough. Operators just need a little training!
Gregg
Though I have the greatest respect to y'all who use the AR-type rifles in the line of duty - for my purposes, the use (and maintenance) of the rifle I purchase will be much more casual. Quite frankly, I'm sure I won't use the rifle hard enough to test it's durability or reliability. I still like the bigger (and cheap) ammo, and it fits my pragmatic nature.
EDIT: Let me add here, that this discussion has been very helpful - thanks for your input!
EDIT: Let me add here, that this discussion has been very helpful - thanks for your input!
Much as I'd like to beat the dead horse with more qualities of the Garand, I think I have to second Chack's suggestion of a VZ 58. I think that Century may be importing/manufacturing them as a VZ-2008?
Part of it is the contrarian in me wanting something different from everybody else out there, and part of it is the generally higher quality manufacturing when compared to an AK. Though to be fair, I've only handled low end AK's and only one VZ, hardly an in depth analysis.
Positives include a better safety and a milled receiver (stiffness, etc.) and cheap ammo.
Negatives include a poor excuse for a folding stock, a milled receiver (weight, etc.) and expensive magazines.
May be worth a look though, as most of the prices I've seen are comparable to AK's.
Part of it is the contrarian in me wanting something different from everybody else out there, and part of it is the generally higher quality manufacturing when compared to an AK. Though to be fair, I've only handled low end AK's and only one VZ, hardly an in depth analysis.
Positives include a better safety and a milled receiver (stiffness, etc.) and cheap ammo.
Negatives include a poor excuse for a folding stock, a milled receiver (weight, etc.) and expensive magazines.
May be worth a look though, as most of the prices I've seen are comparable to AK's.
No AR because of the charging handle location and durability/reliability, eh?
Until u r a more serious shooter I'd say a .22 LR or MAYBE a Mag bolt gun is for you and your SHTF/TEOTWAWKI adventure.
Darwinism implies u won't make it, but, humanism says u should be made as comfortable as possible.
Until u r a more serious shooter I'd say a .22 LR or MAYBE a Mag bolt gun is for you and your SHTF/TEOTWAWKI adventure.
Darwinism implies u won't make it, but, humanism says u should be made as comfortable as possible.
warbirdlover
New member
I don't know what these cost but they're supposed to be good...
http://www.benelliusa.com/rifles/benelli_r1_rifle.php
BAR is around $1000 and super nice.
http://www.benelliusa.com/rifles/benelli_r1_rifle.php
BAR is around $1000 and super nice.
VZ 58? <rubs chin> Very interesting - I may have to research this some more. A Garand is still on the short list, too - the historical significance brings a lot of weight to the argument, even if the ammo is a little pricey.
And a question for you AR proponents: is there a reasonably-priced upper receiver that shoots 7.62x39? (or something similarly powerful and cheap)
And a question for you AR proponents: is there a reasonably-priced upper receiver that shoots 7.62x39? (or something similarly powerful and cheap)
^ That's all well and good until it comes time to but ammo!
I'm listening - is there something I should know about 30-06?
Yeah there is something you should know about 30-06, especially if you are gonna shoot it in a Garand.
CMP Sells Surplus (re-loadable, non-corrosive) ammo cheaper then you can reload. About 50 cents a round in 8 round clips.
http://www.odcmp.com/Sales/relatedsales.htm
Its good ammo, its the ammo CMP issues at the GSM Garand Matches.
The M1 Garand DOES fit the criteria you've listed, they range in quality from $495 to 1000. The $600 Service grade is probably the best buy, but even the $495 Field Grades are great shooters, More then capable of shooting 2-3 MOA. More then capable of hunting up to 600 yards (though I've never seen the need to shoot past 300 for hunting).
I got my Field Grade in the early 80s, its still shoots (and I've shoot it a lot). I even got some good score shooting 1000 yard service matches.
The thing about the CMP Garands, you know they work, they are gone over by CMP Armors before they are allowed in the sales rack. But if for some weird reason there is a problem you'll not find better service the the CMP. All CMP Rifles come directly to your door (no FFL involved) with a hard CMP Rifle Case (no additional charge for the case).
You'll not find a better buy, or a better rifle if you want a rugged rifle that shoots ALWAYS.
50 cents a round is still more than double the price of either 7.62x39 or 7.62x54R.
Don't ket me wrong, the Garand is a fantastic rifle in terms of both its engineering and its role in history, but from a practical standpoint it may not be the most prudent choice given the intended purpose.
It's like comparing a medium format Hasselblad with Sony Cybershot digital. The former will be the better camera in the eyes of the many camera enthusiasts, and with reason, but if one's purposes don't call for a bigger, heavier, higher-maintenance camera that is more expensive to shoot with, then how much sense does it make to get the 'blad anyway?
Don't ket me wrong, the Garand is a fantastic rifle in terms of both its engineering and its role in history, but from a practical standpoint it may not be the most prudent choice given the intended purpose.
It's like comparing a medium format Hasselblad with Sony Cybershot digital. The former will be the better camera in the eyes of the many camera enthusiasts, and with reason, but if one's purposes don't call for a bigger, heavier, higher-maintenance camera that is more expensive to shoot with, then how much sense does it make to get the 'blad anyway?
Looks like you're in the same boat I am.
I'm looking for a cheap, reliable, rugged carbine. Cheap to feed, hard to mess up, accurate enough out to 200 yards or so.
I'm not looking to punch 1" groups at 500 yards. I'd like to be able to hit a man-size target at 150.
I hear the infrequent AR apologist saying things like "It's perfectly reliable as long as you clean it in between each shot, and only use platinum coated bullets individually lubed." Swell.
I don't have 800+ to spend on my first carbine. And on top of that, I've fired literally over a dozen of varied AR-15's. I've rarely gone without a malfunction of some kind. A lot of them requiring a trip home from the range and some serious benchwork to fix.
( That being said, I love shooting tight groups when I can, and I strongly prefer the aesthetics of the AR. It will definitely be my 3rd rifle purchase behind a nice cowboy style lever action.)
I've fired a few bottom-end AK's as well, and I've NEVER had a problem that couldn't be fixed in a matter of seconds, and those problems were a freakish occurrence. Heck my brother's WASR10 is a beater he leaves in the back of his Wrangler in rural Alabama. It's covered in mud, dropped, bumped, kicked and baked in the Alabama Sun, but it still goes bang every time I pull the trigger.
And frankly, that's what I'm looking for. Bang when I pull the trigger, hits a man-size target at 200 yards, heavy enough load for hog hunting if need be, and cheap to buy and feed. With minimum maintenance required.
(Mountains of N. Ga, and woods of S.C., most of my shots take place at under 150 yards when hunting, which would be my tertiary purpose.)
The Vz-58 and the AK are currently topping my list. Let me know if you find a decently priced VZ, all I'm seeing are in the 700+ category, and that's ridiculous.
I'm looking for a cheap, reliable, rugged carbine. Cheap to feed, hard to mess up, accurate enough out to 200 yards or so.
I'm not looking to punch 1" groups at 500 yards. I'd like to be able to hit a man-size target at 150.
I hear the infrequent AR apologist saying things like "It's perfectly reliable as long as you clean it in between each shot, and only use platinum coated bullets individually lubed." Swell.
I don't have 800+ to spend on my first carbine. And on top of that, I've fired literally over a dozen of varied AR-15's. I've rarely gone without a malfunction of some kind. A lot of them requiring a trip home from the range and some serious benchwork to fix.
( That being said, I love shooting tight groups when I can, and I strongly prefer the aesthetics of the AR. It will definitely be my 3rd rifle purchase behind a nice cowboy style lever action.)
I've fired a few bottom-end AK's as well, and I've NEVER had a problem that couldn't be fixed in a matter of seconds, and those problems were a freakish occurrence. Heck my brother's WASR10 is a beater he leaves in the back of his Wrangler in rural Alabama. It's covered in mud, dropped, bumped, kicked and baked in the Alabama Sun, but it still goes bang every time I pull the trigger.
And frankly, that's what I'm looking for. Bang when I pull the trigger, hits a man-size target at 200 yards, heavy enough load for hog hunting if need be, and cheap to buy and feed. With minimum maintenance required.
(Mountains of N. Ga, and woods of S.C., most of my shots take place at under 150 yards when hunting, which would be my tertiary purpose.)
The Vz-58 and the AK are currently topping my list. Let me know if you find a decently priced VZ, all I'm seeing are in the 700+ category, and that's ridiculous.
Last edited:
No AR because of the charging handle location and durability/reliability, eh?
Until u r a more serious shooter I'd say a .22 LR or MAYBE a Mag bolt gun is for you and your SHTF/TEOTWAWKI adventure.
Darwinism implies u won't make it, but, humanism says u should be made as comfortable as possible.
Common 3rd grade English implies you're near illiterate, but, humanism says you have every right to be a condescending know-it-all on an anonymous message board.
I'm no grammar Nazi, but that's just embarrassing. Do you even bother to read what you type?
You mock a guy for not liking the ergonomics of a gun. Then you mock him for his reasons of purchase. You finish with what I'm sure you considered a pithy ending.
All wrapped up in a poorly constructed package of text that reads like a stoned 14 year old wrote it?
Aimsurplus, SummitGunBroker, and others have VZ-58 rifles for under $400 now. They are a better design imo than the AK-47. General ergonomics such as placement of controls, a bolt hold open feature, generally more accurate, and currently cheaper. They are great rifles.
However, the stuff you've heard abotu AR-15s is false and the ones you've shot were probably piles of **** mass crafted by bubba and son manufacturers like CMMG, Del Ton, Bushmaster, etc with improperly made parts. Most issues with those cheap rifles can be alleviated if you just put a quality BCG in them from Colt, DD, BCM, etc. Or change the barrel out to a proper 5.56 NATO one.
I've put well into 2,000 rounds into my BCM upper rifle with zero problems. Reloads, cheap Russian stuff, nice commercial stuff, etc. I rarely clean it. Mostly I just spray some CLP in the action between shooting or pull a bore snake through with oil before putting it away while I'm off at college. Give me some decent ammo and I'll blow up oranges at 200 m with just irons. That's something that is more difficult with the irons on an AK imo (but that can be changed for a small sum).
Here, check this out:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-Government-20-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-gov-20.htm
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-16-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-16.htm
Both are currently in stock. That's quite rare these days as BCM is getting swamped with orders. I would buy either ASAP. I prefer the 20" due to the increased sight radius and velocity for longer range work. The 16" is as good you just get a carbine sight radius (exact same as AK sight radius) and slightly lower velocity BUT you get a shorter overall weapon.
EVERYONE is sold out of good bolt carrier groups right now. I suggest getting on the email list for BCM here:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...Auto-M16-p/bcm bolt carrier group auto mp.htm
Don't worry, M16 bolts are perfectly legal. BATF says so quite clearly. Anyhow...just wait on that and get a charging handle from them and put on some handguards.
$399
$140
$23
-----
= $562 for a complete upper sans whatever iron sights you want (can get a carry handle for $25 and handguards for $10 used locally really easy or on ebay)
To keep it all under $800, that's $238 left for a lower assembly and shipping+taxes+ffl fees (only need to pay FFL fees for the stripped lower of an AR-15 as it's all the ATF defines as the firearm).
Lower for cheap:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1SASL
Get that transferred for cheap to your FFL.
$60
Then get a lower parts kit with or without a stock:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/lower-build-kits.php
$100 or so A2 or CAR
wow, $160 for a completed lower
get some mags for $9 from BravoCompanyUSA or 44mag.com
Under budget, high performing, **** yeah.
However, the stuff you've heard abotu AR-15s is false and the ones you've shot were probably piles of **** mass crafted by bubba and son manufacturers like CMMG, Del Ton, Bushmaster, etc with improperly made parts. Most issues with those cheap rifles can be alleviated if you just put a quality BCG in them from Colt, DD, BCM, etc. Or change the barrel out to a proper 5.56 NATO one.
I've put well into 2,000 rounds into my BCM upper rifle with zero problems. Reloads, cheap Russian stuff, nice commercial stuff, etc. I rarely clean it. Mostly I just spray some CLP in the action between shooting or pull a bore snake through with oil before putting it away while I'm off at college. Give me some decent ammo and I'll blow up oranges at 200 m with just irons. That's something that is more difficult with the irons on an AK imo (but that can be changed for a small sum).
Here, check this out:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-Government-20-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-gov-20.htm
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-16-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-16.htm
Both are currently in stock. That's quite rare these days as BCM is getting swamped with orders. I would buy either ASAP. I prefer the 20" due to the increased sight radius and velocity for longer range work. The 16" is as good you just get a carbine sight radius (exact same as AK sight radius) and slightly lower velocity BUT you get a shorter overall weapon.
EVERYONE is sold out of good bolt carrier groups right now. I suggest getting on the email list for BCM here:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...Auto-M16-p/bcm bolt carrier group auto mp.htm
Don't worry, M16 bolts are perfectly legal. BATF says so quite clearly. Anyhow...just wait on that and get a charging handle from them and put on some handguards.
$399
$140
$23
-----
= $562 for a complete upper sans whatever iron sights you want (can get a carry handle for $25 and handguards for $10 used locally really easy or on ebay)
To keep it all under $800, that's $238 left for a lower assembly and shipping+taxes+ffl fees (only need to pay FFL fees for the stripped lower of an AR-15 as it's all the ATF defines as the firearm).
Lower for cheap:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F1SASL
Get that transferred for cheap to your FFL.
$60
Then get a lower parts kit with or without a stock:
http://palmettostatearmory.com/lower-build-kits.php
$100 or so A2 or CAR
wow, $160 for a completed lower
get some mags for $9 from BravoCompanyUSA or 44mag.com
Under budget, high performing, **** yeah.
And on top of that, I've fired literally over a dozen of varied AR-15's. I've rarely gone without a malfunction of some kind. A lot of them requiring a trip home from the range and some serious benchwork to fix.
When I went through US Army Basic Training in 1985, we were issued M16A1's. These rifles were issued over and over again to basic trainees. They spent most of their time being carried in formation during training in drill and ceremonies. So they were banged into the ground many thousands of times and snapped open and slammed shut innumerable times. Most of them were amazingly loose by civilian standards. I was hoping to shoot Expert and I was dubious that these well worn rifles were going to hit the 300 meter target.
We packed them off to our two weeks in the field. (White Sands MB in NM. Basic was Ft. Bliss.) There were hundreds of us there so I can't speak for every weapon but I know mine worked perfectly. I only shot a 36 but that's still Expert. The shots I missed were my fault.
We slept with them in tents in the sand. We carried them everywhere. We fired them in the heat of the day. We had night ranges. We had full auto ranges. We took them back to the barracks after two weeks and cleaned them carefully. Took a while to get all the sand out! Used them in some more training and eventually turned them back in. Where they got turned around and issued again to the next batch of soldiers. Some of these rifles were clearly from Vietnam War days but they worked just fine.
During my time in the Active Army (25th ID) we transitioned to the M16A2. I loved it. Fixed some things I had disliked about the A1. I unpacked my personal rifle and cleaned the packing oil off it. Fired that same rifle for three years and never had a hint of a malfunction.
When I left the Active Army, went into the Active Reserves. Went to Drill Sergeant School and then went to Basic Training ever summer. Saw countless trainees and their issued M16's. All of which seemed to be working just fine. (Saw a lot more problems on the M60 range. Or even the SAW range.)
As a civilian, my AR's have never given me a hint of trouble.
So I'm baffled when civilians say they have shot "a dozen" AR's and they all had problems! I suppose there are AR's out there that aren't even close to mil-spec and they have problems. Or that the owners weren't prior service and didn't know how to maintain the weapon. But I'm telling you right now, if you went to a military arms room here in CONUS and pulled out 12 rifles at random and took them to a live fire range, I would be VERY surprised if you had functional issues with even one of them. So people either need to buy better AR's or learn how to maintain them!!
Gregg
I like the Vz.58, I have one, in addition to several AK's. I always disagree that they're flat-out better; as good maybe, but not better. My 58 is not the least bit more accurate than my Saiga 7.62x39. The 58 has some advantages, but so does the AK. I've found that the weak point of the 58 is the piston spring, particularly when dealing with loads hotter than the typical M43 (such as the Yugo M67). There's also other quirks such as the mag release being accessible on only one side of the rifle, the incomplete gas "tube" that results in your weak hand getting covered in crap. For some reason it also tends to heat up noticeably faster than any other rifle I've ever fired. Great gun nonetheless, and I'd much rather have one than something like a Mini-30, but I've never bought the idea that it's flat out better than the AK.
Ridge_Runner_5
New member
DocSouth said:And on top of that, I've fired literally over a dozen of varied AR-15's. I've rarely gone without a malfunction of some kind. A lot of them requiring a trip home from the range and some serious benchwork to fix.
Sounds like poorly built guns (as in, not assembled by the manufacturer of the parts), crappy ammo like Wolf, bad magazines, or a bad shooter, to me...
I've fired around a dozen ARs, including worn out rental guns at the range, brand new BCM guns and even brand new guns I've built myself. The only problem I ever had with any of those was a single bad magazine I owned, which I tossed out, and a failed round (one of my own reloads I had not properly crimped).