Selling handguns to an individual

[jmhyer]

You're missing the point. Does this fulfill the legal requirements? You might think it's a good idea but it might be worthless if it doesn't satisfy the legal requirements. If it doesn't, it becomes "good intentions". The old saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Not missing the point. The legal requirements have already been posted. Does my suggestion satisfy the legal requirements? That's open to interpretation. I was merely suggesting an option that might make the OP satisfied that the requirements were met. Only he/she can weigh the risks and decide. I, personally, would be comfortable in taking my advice.

Now, as has also been alluded to, there are also state laws that are applicable. The OP needs also to know what applies specifically to Georgia. In my state, what I've suggested would be golden.

 

[Tom Servo]

Things must be loose in Georgia.

No more than many other states. Selling a gun privately is the same as selling a lawnmower. The buyer and seller must take reasonable precautions to ensure they're not breaking federal law.

That said, if I sell a gun in a private transaction and the buyer uses it in a crime, it will still be traced to me. In that case, it would behoove me to have some sort of documentation that I took precautions before selling it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Things must be loose in Georgia. Maybe the law changed by now in PA, but what ever happened to transfer registration? ...

State laws are different in different States. Private transfers of firearms are regulated in Pennsylvania in ways in which they are not in Georgia and many other States.

But if the transfer is from a resident of one State to a resident of another, federal law applies as well

 

[Gunplummer]

Does "Son of Sam" ring a bell? I would not sell a handgun to anybody with out a transfer.

 

[FITASC]

For any who are interested, here is a sample bill of sale that I adapted to my own desires/needs

No thanks; not for a FTF sale in state

I would not sell a handgun to anybody with out a transfer.

And what does THAT mean?

OP - does not GA require you to obtain a GA DL within 30 days? It did when I lived there decades ago. Even if they are a student, they would have a valid student ID otherwise pass - it could be one of Bloomie's stings

 

[Tom Servo]

does not GA require you to obtain a GA DL within 30 days?

Yes, along with registering any vehicles during that time.

Yet, you'd be surprised how many people don't. I had customers attempt to purchase firearms at retail who'd been in the state for a year or more without updating their ID.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

You're missing the point. Does this fulfill the legal requirements? You might think it's a good idea but it might be worthless if it doesn't satisfy the legal requirements. If it doesn't, it becomes "good intentions". The old saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

But the legal requirement is not to know that the buyer is not a prohibited person, the law is that the seller may not proceed with the sale if he knows or has reasonable suspicion that the buyer is a prohibited person. The buyer's refusal to show an in-state ID could be interpreted as creating a reasonable suspicion that he's not from the same state, but it could also have any of several legitimate explanations.

In essence, the entire legal requirement comes down to "good intentions."

That said, I would not sell to someone who can't or won't show me a valid ID, but IMHO that's going beyond what the law requires.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Things must be loose in Georgia. Maybe the law changed by now in PA, but what ever happened to transfer registration?

What ever happened to transfer registration is that PA is one of only a very few states that has such a process. And PA should do away with it, since it is so widely abused by some police departments. It only records handgun transfers within PA since the law was enacted, so it doesn't include firearms legally owned prior to the law, nor does it cover firearms brought into the state when people relocate. The state has acknowledged in court that it is NOT a registry, because it is not complete, yet some departments insist on running serial numbers any time they encounter a person carrying a handgun (even legally), and they confiscate the firearm if it's not in the "registry" (-that's-not-a-registry). It then becomes the responsibility of the legal owner to somehow prove that the firearm he bought twenty years ago when he lived in Arizona is his firearm.

More theft under color of law.

 

[Dragline45]

I wouldn't sell to anyone without any identification.

In my state when you do a face to face sale you have to fill out an online transfer form, it used to be all on paper and you would have to mail it in. It's convenient because you can do it right there on your phone, and when you enter in their firearms license number all their info pops up so you know they are legit.

 

[Dashunde]

I've always known the person or asked for ID if I didn't, then I take a photo of the ID and gun/number together with my phone.
I do a bill-of-sale in all cases.

I could care less if the buyer doesn't like it or views that photo as a violation of their privacy or whatever nonsense... If I sell a gun to a stranger I am going to be able to show that it is no longer my gun with a bill-of-sale and who I handed it off to with a photo of their ID.

Hiding behind minimal person-to-person transfer requirements while claiming privacy reasons and shouting "thou shall not infringe" shows poor stewardship of our firearms and our right to keep them.

 

[FITASC]

Hiding behind minimal person-to-person transfer requirements while claiming privacy reasons and shouting "thou shall not infringe" shows poor stewardship of our firearms and our right to keep them.

Do you do the same due diligence when selling a knife, ax or chain saw? How about a baseball bat?

There is already WAY too much personal data out there begging to be stolen.

 

[Doyle]

Do you do the same due diligence when selling a knife, ax or chain saw? How about a baseball bat?

Except that there is no legal requirement for "reasonable knowledge" with the sale of knives, axes, or chain saws.

 

[Spats McGee]

I mostly abide by The Cheapshooter Rule ("Never sell or trade anything!"), but I have on rare occasion sold or traded guns. While I've never insisted on a bill of sale, I would insist on a DL, or something to show residence, and the buyer's CHCL if he or she has one. I'd have to say that if the buyer can't or won't show me any sort of gov't-issued ID showing residence, that would send up some red flags for me. And if I get any red flags, I'm gone and taking my gun home with me

When I've been on the buyer's side, I have only ever had to do one bill of sale. In fact, the seller was a buddy of mine, and asked me to draw it up. His gun, his rules. So I drafted a bill of sale for him, signed off on it, and bought the gun.

If a private seller wants to copy or photograph my ID, though, the sale is off. I'll display my DL. I'll even display my CHCL. No pictures or copies of either, though. If a private seller wants that, I'm gone and taking my cash home.

 

[Frank Ettin]

....Do you do the same due diligence when selling a knife, ax or chain saw? How about a baseball bat?....

The purchase and sale of those items aren't as heavily regulated by federal and state law as are the purchase and sale of firearms.

 

[georgiacatweazle]

When selling a gun, print a bill of sale, main information on it needs to be the gun details, primarily serial#, then buyer/seller names, DL# or GWL#
address can be looked up via DMV records.

the DL or GWL needs to be state of georgia.

 

[FITASC]

The purchase and sale of those items aren't as heavily regulated by federal and state law as are the purchase and sale of firearms.

Then, maybe they should be - as many folks killed by them, or autos or a myriad of other things. "reasonable" can be as simple as asking if he is prohibited or is a resident. There are no requirements (in most states at least) to actually provide proof. (Now, in all fairness, I agree that if he wouldn't show it I would be leery as well); but is not a legal requirement, nor is a BOS.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The purchase and sale of those items aren't as heavily regulated by federal and state law as are the purchase and sale of firearms.

Then, maybe they should be...

Whether you think they should be is irrelevant. The fact is that they are not.

..."reasonable" can be as simple as asking if he is prohibited or is a resident. There are no requirements (in most states at least) to actually provide proof....

You might not have the final word on what is or is not reasonable. If things go sour, it might well be up to a jury to decide what would have been reasonable under the circumstances.

 

[Tom Servo]

If things go sour, it might well be up to a jury to decide what would have been reasonable under the circumstances.

I have had to testify in a case like that. Person A sold a gun to Person B without even checking ID. Was he legally required to? No.

Then Person B used the gun in a homicide. Person A wasn't charged, but the victim's family took civil action on the matter.

 

[colbad]

The word "residence" is defied differently for different purposes. For some things you must live in a place for a certain period of time to be a resident. However, permanent "residence" for federal FA purposes is where one objectively lives or calls home and you can only have one permanent residence at any time (exceptions for military). I agree that the fact he has no ID raises red flags to a reasonable person. As such, you should be prepared to address what you as a reasonable person (not an FFL) did to satisfy a reasonable person standard that the individual was a resident (ie lives there).

This can be done with a phone bill showing an address, utility bill, employer evidence, vehicle, apartment lease, etc. Although official photo ID is always best, that is a standard for FFLs not private individuals. Intentionally playing dumb is not a defense, but there is nothing wrong accepting other documentation that would satisfy a reasonable person that the guy lived in the state.

As many have pointed out, it's often better to say "no" than concoct scenarios in your mind to play dumb to what you may already have a feeling for. Don't let greed for a few bucks in a sale jeopardize your own rights or freedoms. That is my two cents. The other recommendations to a bill of sale is also good. Snap some pics of the guy and the docs you accept as proof.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Hiding behind minimal person-to-person transfer requirements while claiming privacy reasons and shouting "thou shall not infringe" shows poor stewardship of our firearms and our right to keep them.

I was mostly in agreement with you until I got to this paragraph. It's your right to decline to sell to anyone you choose, but accusing people who wish to maintain a modicum of privacy and anonymity of poor stewardship is a cheap shot. I know several very respectable people who prefer (when possible) to buy in private, face-to-face transactions specifically to avoid creating a paper trail. I understand that and I respect it.

The Second Amendment doesn't say anything about allowing a seller to retain your personal information when you buy a firearm. It could easily be argued that the best "stewards" of the RKBA are those who refuse on principle to knuckle under to such requests when they go beyond the legal requirements.

I'm somewhere in between. If I were buying privately, I would have no objection to showing the seller my driver's license and/or pistol permit to demonstrate that I'm from the same state and that I'm not a prohibited person but, if the seller wants to copy my personal information or photograph it -- the deal is off.