Selling handguns to an individual

R

Roland Thunder

New member
I am about to sell one of my handguns to someone that responded to my advertisement. If the persons says they are a legal resident of the state I live in (GA) but has no ID of my state (maybe they have an ID for another state and haven't got it changed over) should I refuse to sell it to them.

Is there any liability for me if they are not a resident. What is the best way to complete the transaction if no GA picture ID avaiable without breaking the law.
 
That's a tough one. You have no way to prove that he is a legal resident. That would throw up red flags for me.
 
It is a violation of federal law (18 USC 922(a)(5), with some narrow exceptions not applicable here) for someone to transfer a gun to anyone (emphasis added):
...who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in ... the State in which the transferor resides...
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So the question could become whether the federal prosecutor/grand jury/trial jury decides that your buyer's inability or unwillingness to show you valid Georgia picture ID is "reasonable cause" for you to believe that he's not a Georgia resident. Personally, I think it is.

Note that violating 18 USC 922(a)(5) can get you up to five years in federal prison and will get you a lifetime loss of gun rights.
 
Here is what the law says, my emphasis underlined.
18 U.S. Code § 922 - Unlawful acts said:
(a) It shall be unlawful—

[(1)-(4) omitted]

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes...
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There is no formal federal requirement for the buyer to present gov't-issued picture ID to establish his/her state of residence; however, considering that violating this law is a federal felony that will cause you to lose your gun rights for life, it's generally a good idea to take appropriate steps to verify the person's state of residence, and I don't know how else this could be done if the buyer is not personally known to you.

[EDIT: I see that Frank beat me to the punch.]
 
The last time I sold a gun to an individual. I had a bill of sale that stated that the buyer attests to the fact that he is a resident of GA and is legally able to own a fire in accordance with GA laws, to which he and I both signed a copy.

Of course, he had a picture id, which helped. Even with a picture id, he could have been a felon, so I thought that let me off the hook.
 
If no ID for your state, then I would ask for some other reasonable form of ID AND insist that they sign a bill of sale with a statement saying that they are in fact a legal resident of your state. Otherwise, for me, it would be a no sale.
 
If no ID for your state, then I would ask for some other reasonable form of ID AND insist that they sign a bill of sale with a statement saying that they are in fact a legal resident of your state. Otherwise, for me, it would be a no sale.
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Is this you idea or is it legally allowed. "Good intentions" aren't necessarily legally correct.
 
This is not "good intentions". Good intentions would be to take the person at his/her word. What I suggested (i.e.- a bill of sale with attestation from the buyer that he/she is a legal resident of my state) provides documentation that I took reasonable steps to ensure that the person buying the gun was in fact qualified to do so.
 
My motto is No Drivers License, No Sale!!! It's your obligation to make sure the guy is actually a resident of your state. If he just happens to be a resident of GA, then no problem; if he isn't, then you have a problem, don't you.

Occasionally, I will sell one of my guns at a gun show. I hang a big sign from the gun case with description, price and in big bold: SELLER REQUIRES DRIVER'S LICENSE. The bottom line - if you don't trust me to examine your driver's license, I don't trust you to buy my gun. Oh, and if you are buying one of my guns, you will be getting just-better-than-a-fair deal. I price my guns to sell, not to attract tire kickers. So, yeah, I can afford pick my buyer, because I usually have plenty to pick from.

One of the off-duty officers who checks guns was surprised to see this and told me that was a good idea, even though the law doesn't require it. I told him my moral conscience requires it.
:)
 
Don't do it.......violates both the letter and spirit of the law. Not worth the potential hassle. However, you should contact the guy before you meet. And if he says it's a go........bring a friend.
 
I've been in two situations in which the buyer didn't want to show valid ID. Could I claim ignorance in my defense? Perhaps. Do I want to be put in that situation? Nope.

Maybe they're just harmless eccentrics who don't want to "be on the radar." Maybe not. It's not worth the risk.
 
For me its a personal policy of no ID, no sale.

As a matter of law, it would be interesting to see a comparison of voter ID and gunbuyer ID using the same arguments.
 
Kind of a modest proposal:

As the seller I sometimes think it would be nice to go over to the police station with the potential buyer and have the police check their records and tell me the guy is legal to own a gun. In my mind that would be the police helping me out and being part of the solution.

What could possibly go wrong? Why tons of stuff of course but it would put my mind at ease and possibly cover me legally over the sale.

Luckily it doesn't apply because I adhere to Cheapshooter's rule of firearm ownership.
 
I would probably follow the advice of everyone else here but it's important to know the law. If an ID is not required for the transfer then it isn't required that you have to see one. I've heard of many people not coughing one up on principle and there are people out there who jealously guard their privacy. Here is Illinois we have FOID so there's no worry of transferring to felons.
 
Police departments aren't generally going to do background checks because they aren't equipped to do so and if they miss something, they don't want to be responsible for that. So, I'm not on board with wondering down to a police station to do a gun sale. FWIW, I did have to undergo a background check by my CLEO before he would sign off on a transfer of a machine gun to me. He had a special agent who did this for him and the investigation was fairly intrusive. But, this was his procedure, not something I asked them to do just so that I could sell a gun.
 
On a form 4473, picture ID from another address can be taken in combination with government issued proof of address such as car registration, property tax bill, voter ID etc.

If you decide to go through with the sale without ID from your state (I'm not sure I would) I would ask for old ID and one of these forms on top of a bill of sale
 
I will always insist on some sort of documentation of the transaction...not to file with the ATF, FBI, local police, courthouse, etc...and not because the law requires it. I just feel most comfortable in case there's ever a legal question asked of me if I have documentation to fall back on. This is why I like a bill of sale...and there should be two copies - one for the buyer and one for the seller. Such documentation protects all parties involved. If I'm the seller, I can show that I've done my due diligence to ensure that I have not sold a firearm to someone who is disqualified. If I'm the buyer, I have documentation to show that I didn't steal the guy's gun (like a store receipt) and he gave me assurance that it was his to sell.

And I certainly understand people wanting to be private...and that's fine if you're buying a used sofa or a guitar. But, like it or not (and in my opinion,) firearms are different. I don't think the government needs to be involved with such private transactions, but I think it behooves all involved to protect themselves.

For any who are interested, here is a sample bill of sale that I adapted to my own desires/needs. Feel free to duplicate it if you desire.

 
This is not "good intentions". Good intentions would be to take the person at his/her word. What I suggested (i.e.- a bill of sale with attestation from the buyer that he/she is a legal resident of my state) provides documentation that I took reasonable steps to ensure that the person buying the gun was in fact qualified to do so.
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You're missing the point. Does this fulfill the legal requirements? You might think it's a good idea but it might be worthless if it doesn't satisfy the legal requirements. If it doesn't, it becomes "good intentions". The old saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".
 
Things must be loose in Georgia. Maybe the law changed by now in PA, but what ever happened to transfer registration? The OP is talking a handgun. I would and have sold rifles with no registration, but a handgun? Even people that inherit handguns from relatives have to register them here, unless that changed. Sounds weird to me.
 
Maybe the law changed by now in PA, but what ever happened to transfer registration?
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The VAST majority of states do not have handgun registration (despite what they say on the TV crime shows).
 
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