Self-Defense Bullet Selection Criteria

Overrated 357 Sig

Yes, I agree! The highly vaunted 357 Sig's performance is even equaled and bettered by the lowly 9mm with terrible 147-gr. loads. :rolleyes:

Example: For an eye opening pleasant surprise, take a look at Winchester's Ranger T Ballistic Performance Database in comparing the lowly standard pressure 9mm T Series (RA9T) to the fast and mighty 357 Sig (RA357SIGT and RA357SIGB). :confused:

http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

Speed doesn't always equate to better terminal performance!
 
ballstic performance vs flesh

I was discussing, and will continue to discuss, what actually happens in real life, with cops and civilians actually shooting people.

I note that the 147g duty ammo parade is completely over (although manufacturers must meet the market); I note that the 357 SIG/ 124g parade is growing.
Real life people shooting people......actually.

Gel doesn't always equal demonstrated real-world performance.
 
ps

I do not, nor have I ever, owned any guns chambered in 357 SIG.
I do not, nor have I ever, manufactured 357 SIG ammo.
I have manufactured 115g, 124, and 147g 9x19/ 9x21/ 38 Super ammo designed for shooting people.
 
I think some people make the issue of ammo selection too complicated. Hollowpoints that feed, being from a reputable maker, is usually enough criteria. Or flatnose bullets, as they seem to do a lot of damage too.
 
Bartholomew Roberts states
I base it on the average male torso being about 19" shoulder to shoulder and about 9" front to back.

To clarify, now that you have halved the distance (18" to 9" for a "front to back measurement"), just how did you come to:
In short, twice the volumetric difference sounds impressive at first glance; but I am skeptical that this is going to yield twice the practical effect, or even 1.1x the practical effect.
 
It's pretty darn simple to me. Regardless of caliber. I load and carry my own. And the bullet of choice is XTP, JHP!

I load up 9mm, 45 acp, 38/357 and 7.62x25. :D
 
The FBI posts their ballistic testing and that's how I selected self defense ammo. They have wound sizes, penetration, a ration between recoil and tissue damage or something like that. It's been awhile since I've checked it out but I went with Remington Golden Sabres in both 9mm and 45 ACP based on what I saw there.
 
As WESHOOT2 said, it's all about what happens in the real world, not the lab.

In the real world, it's all a wash. For every exceptional result from a particular round, you can find one that failed terribly. For every "miraculous stop" from your favorite caliber and load, it can always be tied back to something completely independent of the caliber/load itself (placement, pathological conditions, psychology, etc.).
 
A .22 Short can hit an artery and kill faster than a .44 Magnum that just missed that same artery by a quarter of an inch. A shot in the leg into the femoral artery is not the "kill zone" or center of mass but can incapacitate faster than a chest shot in many circumstances.

That's the point. There have been cases where powerful handguns loaded with "the best" in "stopping power" did not do what all the investment was supposed to be worth.

Replace "artery" with "nerve" and continue the debate.

I don't buy into the new ammunition craze that has saturated the ammunition market after the invention of the Norma Partition or Jacketed Hollow Point.

How can a bullet be worked on so hard and be expected to replace the laws of motion that make 100% reliability in placement impossible?

If it's a .357 use 125 SJHPs. If it's a .45 ACP use FMJs or perhaps the flying ashtray of the same weight. If it's a 9mm use JHPs or FMJs like WWI and WWII and today use. If it's a .38 use what was available 20 years ago and don't worry about it.

The bullet cannot do any work without hitting what it's supposed to hit.

I see all these new loads of ammo on the shelves sorted 20 or 25 at a box for 3 to 5 times the price of ammo that works just as well in the REAL WORLD.

I still can't figure out why people buy the stuff....!
 
To clarify, now that you have halved the distance (18" to 9" for a "front to back measurement"), just how did you come to:

It isn't how much volume the bullet displaces, it is where the tissue is displaced. 2 cubic inches of muscle tissue displaced in the arm isn't going to do near as much to effect physiological incapacitation as a half cubic inch of displaced heart muscle. As a result, twice the displacement of tissue is unlikely to result in twice the practical effect in a typical pistol bullet wound track (i.e. a long cylinder) where additional volume is accomplished mostly by a slight increase in diameter measured over 18".
 
In handgun cartridges for SD, kinetic energy doesn't matter much and one should not place such a high priority on it. Shot placement and plenty of practice with a reliable weapon is the key. Next is choice of bullet and its construction. Then choice of caliber (within reason) is the last priority.

I don't place energy as high on the priority list as you might think. My previous comments were assuming that caliber and gun have already been chosen and that speed and marksmanship are separate issues, I'm looking solely at ammunition selection.

As far as energy not making much difference, well sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. The problem with ballistic gelatin is that it only tells you half the story: it predicts how the bullet will react to striking the target. What ballistic gel doesn't predict is how the target will react to the bullet. The way that kinetic energy causes damage to a living target is by temporary cavitation stretching tissue beyond its elastic limit. As has often been pointed out, many tissues in the body cannot be stretched beyond their elastic limit by the temporary cavitation created by common handgun energy levels. However, what is often overlooked is that the human body is not homogenous and different tissues have differing degrees of elasticity.

Skelital muscle, for example, is quite elastic and would probably suffer minimal, if any, permanent damage from handgun-level temporary cavity. Liver tissue, on the other hand, is not very elastic at all and would suffer a great deal of damage from handgun-level temporary cavity.

Similarly, air-filled organs such as the lungs are much less sensitive to temporary cavity than fluid-filled organs such as the heart. A shot through the lungs would probably produce relativley little damage beyond that of the permanent crush cavity. A shot through a blood-filled heart ventricle, on the other hand, would be much more devastating not only because of the permanent crush cavity, but also because the temporary cavity is likely to cause profound damage to the rather delicate atrio-ventricular valves.

Back to the comparison between the 127grn +P+ Winchester Ranger and the 147grn version, both loadings display adequate penetration and reliable expansion. The difference between them is not enough, in my mind, to offset the disparity in energy between the two loadings.

Also, I think the FBI's standards are often misunderstood. The 12" minimum penetration standard is, for many situations, more than is needed. As was noted before, the upper torso of an average adult man is 9-10" from front to back, so a straight-on shot with a loading that meets the FBI's criteria would, in all likelihood, be a through-and-through shot. The reason that the standards are seemingly overly deep is to compensate, as has also been pointed out, for a shot that must pass through an extremity or other intermediate barrier or a shot at an oblique angle. Even if our bullet must penetrate 3" of forearm and then only penetrates 9" of torso, that's still sufficiently deep to reach the vital organs.

If you really think you need more penetration than what a medium weight bullet for a given caliber can give you, I think you'd probably be better served by switching to a larger caliber than by switching to the heaviest loading avaialble.
 
pythagorean said:
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If it's a .357 use 125 SJHPs. If it's a .45 ACP use FMJs or perhaps the flying ashtray of the same weight. If it's a 9mm use JHPs or FMJs like WWI and WWII and today use. If it's a .38 use what was available 20 years ago and don't worry about it.

I still can't figure out why people buy the stuff....!
Ammo technology has improved a lot in the past twenty years. The suggestion that you offer is about the worst reply i've seen posted in a while. Speer stopped production of the 200gr JHP over ten years ago because it was replaced with the much improved Gold Dot bullet design, and suggesting others to use FMJ in a defensive scenario when premium JHP ammo is readily available for a few bucks more a box than FMJ ammo is just plain bad advice.


Use premium JHP ammo like HST, Gold Dot, Ranger T, DPX, Golden Saber, XTP. Practice using it for accuracy and positive functioning, and consider yourself well-armed
 
Ammo technology has improved a lot in the past twenty years. The suggestion that you offer is about the worst reply i've seen posted in a while. Speer stopped production of the 200gr JHP over ten years ago because it was replaced with the much improved Gold Dot bullet design, and suggesting others to use FMJ in a defensive scenario when premium JHP ammo is readily available for a few bucks more a box than FMJ ammo is just plain bad advice.


Use premium JHP ammo like HST, Gold Dot, Ranger T, DPX, Golden Saber, XTP. Practice using it for accuracy and positive functioning, and consider yourself well-armed

Technology has improved to the point the rounds open better, etc., but not in the respect that it causes some sort of exceptional wounding effect. That would be a very unfounded claim. I think the point that was trying to be made is a bullet is a bullet when it hits a part of the body, no matter brand, etc. There are subtle differences in how it expands, etc., but not enough to consider one better than the other in performance, in the real world. Examining real-life cases will either support this, or not give enough information to make a conclusion. I have yet to see a single case where it was proven that the design of bullet itself, or properties that make it "premium", did anything to aid in ending the fight faster. The real benefit of premium rounds is the low-flash powder and higher QC. That's it. Of course, that is something that does make the premium JHPs a step above, but it is not too important to everyone.

The argument of premium JHPs performing better than the bulk JHPs, or those made 20 years ago, is based purely on conjecture. I dare to say this, because science is never certain, but I would be willing to bet that in 100% of the cases, no one will be able to tell the wound track of a WIN USA JHP from a Speer Gold Dot, or any other premium defense round. It would take a pretty good examination of a recovered bullet just to tell which company made it.
 
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Bartholomew Roberts states:
It isn't how much volume the bullet displaces, it is where the tissue is displaced. 2 cubic inches of muscle tissue displaced in the arm isn't going to do near as much to effect physiological incapacitation as a half cubic inch of displaced heart muscle. As a result, twice the displacement of tissue is unlikely to result in twice the practical effect in a typical pistol bullet wound track (i.e. a long cylinder) where additional volume is accomplished mostly by a slight increase in diameter measured over 18".

If this were indeed the case, since we seem to all be guaranteed heart shots, then round nose .22 shorts would be all that was ever needed.

If you consider the math, the slight increase in bullet diameter does not have a direct linear relationship with the "displacement" (measure the difference between 9mm and 10mm diameters); using the FBI numbers from their report first brought up by the OP.

Nor as you have stated does a "1.1x" (of which you are "skeptical") seem to have any "backing" that I have yet seen.

Let us take a look at that "displacement" and consider where it happens (I would say that this is with in the "9 inches" where the majority takes place:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/10mmAuto180grRemJHP.html

If I can get approximately twice the "displacement" (according to the FBI) with certain calibers, that is something that I am not going to discount lightly.

And bullet design does make a significant difference:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Hollowpoint Versus FMJ.html
 
If this were indeed the case, since we seem to all be guaranteed heart shots, then round nose .22 shorts would be all that was ever needed.

I do not understand the point your are making, or indeed the purpose of many of your questions. I'm discussing what I perceive to be as flaws in choosing a self-defense bullet based on the amount of ballistics gel it displaces.

Are you suggesting there is a noticeable difference in practical effect between a .22 hole in the heart and a .45 hole in the heart? If you are, I am interested in hearing that reasoning. If your point is that the .22 round must penetrate deeply enough to reach the heart, then we are and have been in agreement.

My point, in case you did not understand me, is that disrupting muscle tissue doesn't do much towards physiological incapcitiation; but it counts for a lot of the volume in comparisons of tissue displacement.

If you consider the math, the slight increase in bullet diameter does not have a direct linear relationship with the "displacement" (measure the difference between 9mm and 10mm diameters); using the FBI numbers from their report first brought up by the OP.

Of course it doesn't. 27 out of 40 shots from the 9mm didn't penetrate 18". 39 out of 40 shots from the 10mm did penetrate 18". Since displacement of tissue is measured along the entire cylinder, the numbers in the study aren't going to be linear. Why that is relevant to this discussion, I'm not sure. Can you clarify the point you were trying to make?

Nor as you have stated does a "1.1x" (of which you are "skeptical") seem to have any "backing" that I have yet seen.

I apologize if it was unclear from my initial post; but that isn't a scientific figure. That is just a random number I chose to illustrate my belief that a pistol bullet at typical handgun velocities producing twice the volume of displacement in ballistics gel isn't going to be twice as effective as the bullet it is compared to. I didn't think it was necessary to elaborate on that in the first post, since to the best of my knowledge, there isn't even a standardized unit of measurement for the practical effectiveness of a bullet in an actual shooting, so I took it for granted that people would recognize that 1.1x was not a real, valid number.

Let us take a look at that "displacement" and consider where it happens (I would say that this is with in the "9 inches" where the majority takes place:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/10mmAuto180grRemJHP.html

OK, I am going to calculate the volume of this simply, using the volume of a cylinder as a rough guideline, even though I realize this does not exactly reproduce the volume of this gel shot.

This 10mm 180gr JHP shot penetrated 13.1" of gel and expanded to 0.664" average diameter - giving it a displacement of 4.54 cubic inches.

Now look at this 9mm 124gr Gold Dot gel shot. It penetrated 10.6" of gel and had an average diameter of 0.682", giving it a displacement of 3.87 cubic inches.

So, under what conditions is the 10mm going to produce physiological incapacitation better (in the sense of taking someone out of the fight significantly faster) than the 9mm in the shot above assuming identical placement, angle, and that both bullets have sufficient penetration to reach the vitals?

And bullet design does make a significant difference:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Hollowpo...sus FMJ.html

Since I haven't been arguing otherwise, I am going to assume that was directed to others in the thread.
 
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