Self defense ammo

Back in the 1960's things got tougher in law enforcement due to drugged-up criminals and the old .38 Special 158 grain, round nose lead bullet got the reputation of being a "widow maker" for the numbers of failure to stop incidents.

After police agencies and cities got their socks sued off by widows they finally got the cartridge companies to develop modern higher pressure ammo, designated as .38 Special Plus Pressure or .38 Special +P.

The original types were similar in performance to the old hot .38-44 cartridge.
Loaded with a 158 grain, lead, semi-wadcutter, hollow point bullet this finally ended the failures to stop cases.

It was so effective the street cops called it the ".38 SPLAT" for the sound it supposedly made when it hit.
It was more commonly known as the FBI, Chicago, St Louis, LAPD, New Orleans, etc load, depending on where you lived.
Over the years cartridge companies have been downloading it to the point where it's not much more powerful then the standard .38 Special was back then.

One .38 Special +P load that is NOT downloaded is the HOT Buffalo Bore Bullet Company version.
This one uses a softer lead bullet with a gas check that allows pushing the soft bullet at near Magnum velocities without excessive leading.
It uses a low-flash powder and is pushing .357 Magnum velocities.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/17...mi-wadcutter-hollow-point-gas-check-box-of-20

This gives near Magnum performance in a lead .38 Special with very effective results due to the expansion of the soft lead hollow point.
If you want the most effective .38 Special without the extreme blast and recoil of a .357 Magnum, this may be the best way to go.

In this case, the .38 SPLAT lives.
 
I recommend Speer's 135 grain GDHP SB ("Short Barrel") ammo. In either 38+P or 357 Mag.

The reason I brought the 357 Mag cartridge into the conversation is because Speer's 135 Gold Dot (Speer # 23917) is a mild 357 Mag loading, designed for modern 357 Mag J-frame snubbies. It chronographs at 1153 f/s through my 3" 686. So obviously, it is "de-tuned" by normal 357 Mag defense loading standards. It's a good round. It's what I carry. They are very manageable (for me anyway); clearly being more potent than a 38+P, but definitely not a full-power magnum ear-punisher.

If you still don't want to go with a 357 Mag cartridge, Speer's 38+P loading with the same 135 grain bullet (Speer # 23921) is an excellent choice. It chronographs a at 955 f/s through the same 3" 686. As others have mentioned, shot placement is everything.

I would trust either one.

And has also been mentioned: It would be good for you to buy a bunch of different loadings and see what you like. The most important attribute your ammunition choice should have is your personal comfort shooting it.
 
The most important attribute your ammunition choice should have is your personal comfort shooting it.
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That's a comforting platitude, but shooters need to man up and carry something that will be effective. A 357 is never fun unless in a bigger gun.
 
if you don't think that you gun shoots
certain ammo better than another
then that is realy amazing. and a whole bunch of
posters in this Forum that keeps saying
that certain ammo works better than others
in their revolvers/pistols must be wrong.
IMHO and other opinions also thinks that
foreign ammo is not as good
as American made.
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Oh no doubt some guns shoot better with certain ammo and some ammo might not shoot as well in any gun. But the gun isn't going to be hurt in any way by ammo that doesn't shoot as accurately.

Also, don't be confused that American made ammo is superior to foreign made ammo as a rule. There is some very good ammo made outside our borders and there also some pretty bad ammo made in the US. You usually get what you pay for, no matter where it's made.

Now, if you want to support US employers and employees, that is a different thing, and a noble cause.
 
That's a comforting platitude, but shooters need to man up and carry something that will be effective
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Effective can mean a lot of things.

Being able to hit a target accurately with multiple rounds can be considered effective. A 38 special round that consistently penetrates ballistic gel more than 12" and consistently expands can be considered effective.

Being able to "man up" to take the recoil and blast of 357 is great for bragging rights, but can you consistently and accurately make hits with that round, quickly, in double action, on demand, every time? If so, great. Carry 357. If not, you're only lying to yourself and those you are protecting.
 
That's a comforting platitude, but shooters need to man up and carry something that will be effective.
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Perhaps "confident" would have been a more accurately descriptive word than "comfortable." I'm generally pretty good with my word choices; maybe this time left some to be desired.

Be that as it may . . . I consider most any 38+P ammunition to be "effective." It's a difficult, subjective, and highly debated topic; no doubt. I respect others' opinions; just as I respect their right to carry the ammo (and firearm) of their choice.

90% of the time, I carry a 9mm. It's a compact, flat, easily concealed platform which bodes well here in California where light clothing is the norm about nine months out of the year. But my firearm choice of carry (Kahr CW9) has little to do with terminal ballistics ("effectiveness").

If I owned the OP's M65 3" bbl: A - I wouldn't hesitate carrying it. B - I would probably load it with the aforementioned (post #22) Speer GDHP SB 135 +P's. (I carry the Speer 357's in my 686 because it's a larger, heavier gun.) And I would carry that ammo with every bit as much confidence as my 9mm ammo (Speer 124 +P).

On paper, the 9mm beats the 38+P every day of the week. But, the 38 has an edge that doesn't show up on paper - and that is bullet profile. Since it's a revolver cartridge, feeding is not an issue. When feeding is not an issue, terminal ballistic design need not be compromised. Their bullet profiles are more aggressive; and thus, potentially more effective.

Perhaps the above paragraph makes some roll their eyes - fair enough. Point is, for me, I would carry 38+P ammo with the confidence that they would be as effective as any, in just about any SD situation. Shot placement. Shot placement. Shot placement.
 
I only have one revolver, a Ruger GP100, and I don't typically rely on it for use in a self-defense role. If I did, I would probably load it with either 6 rds of Speer Gold Dot +P 38 Special, or 3 rds of GD +P 38 followed by 3 rds of 158 grain .357 Magnum JHP.
 
Winchester Train & Defend 130gr 38 Special is perfect for SD.

357 is generally making more noise and recoil than productive results on target when compared to a quality 38. Its a bonded load over very soft lead so its expansion is perfect out of all barrel lengths with excellent penetration. Low flash and low recoil make for fast follow-up shots, and the matching 'train' load is indistinguishable from the 'defend' JHP load so effective training is a snap.

I carry it daily in all my CCW wheel guns.

38 Special Train & Defend
 
In my view, its more about shot placement - than bullet weight ....../ but like someone else suggested, get a few boxes of .38 spl and .357 mag...and shoot them and see what you think.

Personally, in my model 66 2 1/2" S&W I carry 158gr .357 Mag...( Buffalo Bore brand JHP ) is what I carry in it, when I carry it ( or a model 66 or 19 in a 4" barrel )...mostly because its similar to what I reload for practice - a Montana Gold JHP 158 gr at about the same speed.
 
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357 is generally making more noise and recoil than productive results on target when compared to a quality 38.
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Partly because the 357's mass is reduced from its original N-Frame form. You just need to tailor the ammo to the gun (model 66), still using 357s. The question has been answered with mention of Speer Short Barrel 357 or your pet reload. Yes, the context is still the OP's model 66.
 
Partly because the 357's mass is reduced from its original N-Frame form. You just need to tailor the ammo to the gun (model 66), still using 357s. The question has been answered with mention of Speer Short Barrel 357 or your pet reload. Yes, the context is still the OP's model 66.
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My comment still stands.

Your 'man-up' comment says a lot about your mindset, 'feelings' never trump rational thought and simple fact.
 
The 3" K frame is one of my all time favorites. When I carry my 3" model 13 I load it with CORBON DPX. It is not a full power load.

I do not encourage any use of a 38 special load in a 357 magnum as long as there is no physical limitation. The 357 is tremendously more effective than the 38 in the SD role.
 
357 is generally making more noise and recoil than productive results on target when compared to a quality 38.
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Based on what? The same bullet in a 357 will be moving 350-500 fps that the 38 counterpart. The individual gun determines the actual velocity.

The people I saw shot did not know they were shot with 357 snubby's.
 
The 357 is tremendously more effective than the 38 in the SD role.
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By your logic, the 454 Casull is tremendously more effective than the 357.
Why aren't you carrying a 454 instead of your lowly 3" model 13?

Based on what?
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Reality

The same bullet in a 357 will be moving 350-500 fps that the 38 counterpart.
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And producing far more recoil and muzzle blast.

The individual gun determines the actual velocity.
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Um no, bullet weight & type, powder type & qty, combined with barrel length, rifling, and cylinder gap, all combined are what determine actual velocity.

The people I saw shot did not know they were shot with 357 snubby's.
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Um, okay......
 
feelings are the basis of rationalizing why 38 Special is okay.
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Umm...no, try first hand actual experience, basic math, and ninth grade physics.

Just because YOU clearly use emotion, doesn't mean you can project such a thought process upon others.

I can prove my point by asking one simple question, one that you've already ignored....
Why aren't you carrying a 454 instead of your lowly 3" model 13?
 
Just because YOU clearly use emotion, doesn't mean you can project such a thought process upon others.
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Pop psychology is not a valid argument.

I can prove my point by asking one simple question, one that you've already ignored....
Why aren't you carrying a 454 instead of your lowly 3" model 13?
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Actually, I am carrying a 44 Special S&W 696.
 
I often rely on a 3" GP100, and I load it with Critical Defense 125gn, which clocks at 1300+ in my revolver.
I don't find factory 357 to be hard to handle at all. I used to have a 2.5" Model 19, and shot 357 in it most of the time...using the small wood Magna grips with a T-grip.
I often wonder why people buy 357's and then complain about the recoil. If you spend an hour shooting a 4" 44mag with full power magnum loads, or a 45colt Blackhawk with "Ruger only" loads, a K or GP feels like a 22.
My GP holds 6 rounds. I want each of those 6 rounds to be full power.
As for the muzzle blast, I know what is coming out of the muzzle of my revolver.
The bad guy doesn't. A 357 flash bang may fight or flight to the flight side, while maximizing on target effect if it doesn't.

The 38spl is a great round, and quite capable. If I want to use it for self defense, I'll load up my Model 15-3 with either the short barrel load or the FBI load.
Back in the day, when revolvers filled police holsters, the newer loads like the +P SWCHP got great street results...but they never equaled the 125gn 357mag.
 
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but they never equaled the 125gn 357mag
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Prove the assertion.....


BTW, it's not about 'Too hard to handle' or 'too much blast', it's about whether those aspects are worth the marginal relative terminal ballistics improvement and slower follow up shots. The math and physics (along with first hand experience) show they are not.

Believing that more muzzle blast and flash is going to have any sort practical effect on a target subject, versus more controlled and faster follow up shots is frankly rather silly. If bang, blast, and flash are the goal along with more ft/lbs on target, then 454 Alaskan's should be hanging off the belt of every LEO.

BTW, I am not 'against' using 357 Magnum, it just depends on the application and the firearm type (weight & barrel length).
 
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