Self Def Ammo...

M

MatthewM

New member
45ACP.
What's the best self defense ammo for in the home, in the suburbs.
Knock down? Kill? Disintegrate for after dumping the body..
Don't care what it costs, won't ever shoot it, right.

MagSafe: Birdshot in epoxy. #6 or #12. 68grn or 96grn.
Glaser: Birdshot packed behind plastic tip. 145grn.
Triton: Quick-Shock: 3part lead slug separates. 165grn
Triton: Hi-Vel: Huge Mushroom. 165grn or 185grn.
Winchester:SXT(BlackTalon):Mushrooming Jacket cuts. 230gr
Federal HydraShock: HollowPoint + likely to mushroom.230gr

Quick-Shock looks cool for combination of lethal & safety.

For now, I bought the Black Talon because it was all I could find local.
 
Anything BUT Magsafe or Glaser.

Right now there's a thread going on elsewhere on defensive ammo. The guy from Triton is posting information on the QS.

I'm still quite skeptical on the concept, but I'm very curious about it.
 
I'd go with the Federal or the Winchester as well. Also, I'd get in touch with Georgia Arms and take a look at their offering in 230-gr JHP. If I recall correctly, they buy the Speer Gold Dot (another good choice, incidentally) bullets and then manufacture their own cartridges. I bought a BUNCH of those from Georgia Arms, because they sell their JHP's for only slightly more than you'd expect to pay for ball ammo.

http://www.georgia-arms.com/ (main page)

or

http://www.georgia-arms.com/pistol.htm#op (pistol ammo)
 
Quick-Shock is the best instant soup maker I've ever seen!

In the fruit and vegetable wars; a .22 QS made far more cabbage and watermellon soup than a .223 HP did, time after time. The 9mm QS made more soup than a .308 HP by far.

I had acres and acres of huge watermellons and huge Korean cabbage -- no goats and no other higher life forms were available for testing.

Sincerely,

Rev. Quick-Shock

;)

I have been told that I preach sermons on Quick-Shock and Makarovs so the vote is split 50% for calling me Rev. Makarov. Now if I could just get some Makarov Quick-Shocks! Ahhhhhhhh the imagined bliss of it all. ;)
 
The absolute best most destructive stop them in their tracks loads are made by Bob Illingsworth of Quality Ammunition in Origeon.

His company used to make the Safety glaser but was sold off and the quality went down.

Evans and Marshall is testing his magnum defense ammo now.

Bob tests each lot with his gun. if he doesn't get one ragged hole at 25 feet, they redo the batch.

Powermax 185 grain JHPs Gold Dots 1200 fps/592 fpe.
The 200 do 1100/537 fpe
The 230s do 1000/511 fpe
His 9mm 115 grainers do 1400/500 fpe all in a 5" test barrel.

Read up and check out Caliber Evaluations on the Net. 165 grains are just to light and don't have the density needed. 185 to 230 grainers only if you want the best ballatic results a 45 handgun can deliver.

GA, GD, HS, QS, PL, CB cannot touch that. Proload and Gerogia Arms are close with their +P loadings with the Gold Dot bullet, they just don't push it fast enough to use the bullet's power effectively. Powermax also uses the Gold dot bullets.

Bob has contracts to supply ammo to the San Diego and Cal Hwy Patrol. But many agencies won't use his stuff because it can penatrte body armor and most of the cops involved in shooting as assaulted with their own guns.

A while ago, a San Diego cop shot through the car door hitting the BG in the leg during a felon car chase.

It destroys and it punctures and that's the key. massive trama going in expanding to 1" in diameter. That other smack just punctures and penetrates to 14" and then stops with only moderate expansion. And QS, please, three tiny wound channels ain't going to cause the trauam needs when you have to use deadly force to stop him from inflicting deadly force back at you.

People say it has one heck of a recoil to it but I never felt any. Was like shooting Corbons.

I pray I never use this stuff but it got me some nice 2" groups at 25 feet in my Glock 30. If I ever have to use it, I'm confident the bullet will hit the mark and they will stop. Otherwise, I've got 10 more rounds.

Bob will sell you some. 541-597-2651
 
JT,

I realize that your post is based on your opinion and I don’t want to start a flame war but I would like to address a few of your comments if I could. Also, does Quality Ammunition have a website?

The absolute best most destructive stop them in their tracks loads are made by Bob Illingsworth of Quality Ammunition in Origeon.

Evans and Marshall is testing his magnum defense ammo now.
Click to expand...

Are these some other individuals who are now performing tests or are you talking about Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow?

What, exactly, was the criteria for your initial statement and what testing standards were used to qualify that?

Powermax 185 grain JHPs Gold Dots 1200 fps/592 fpe.
The 200 do 1100/537 fpe
The 230s do 1000/511 fpe
His 9mm 115 grainers do 1400/500 fpe all in a 5" test barrel.

<snip>

GA, GD, HS, QS, PL, CB cannot touch that
Click to expand...

Novel idea driving a bullet fast. Lets see GA (Georgia Arms), PL (Proload) and CB (Cor-Bon) are ammunition companies. GD (Gold Dot), HS (Hydra-shok) and QS (Quik-Shok) are bullet designs. What exactly are you trying to say? That GA, PL and CB don’t load to those velocities (they could if they wanted to you know). Or that GD, HS or QS can’t be loaded to those velocities (they can you know). The question is will driving those bullets to higher velocities (and within safe pressure levels) achieve better performance?

loadings with the Gold Dot bullet, they just don't push it fast enough to use the bullet's power effectively.
Click to expand...

Please provide your definition of Bullet Power. I’m sure you realize that bullets are designed with a velocity window that they perform best in. Driving a bullet outside of this window will have an adverse effect on terminal performance.

his stuff because it can penetrate body armor
Click to expand...

Interesting (not hard to do I might add). And he also sells these loads to the general public?

A while ago, a San Diego cop shot through the car door hitting the BG in the leg during a felon car chase.
Click to expand...

And?

And QS, please, three tiny wound channels ain't going to cause the trauam needs when you have to use deadly force to stop him from inflicting deadly force back at you.
Click to expand...

With your advanced degrees in physics and years of experimentation/experience in designing bullets you arrived at this conclusion? I must say that that is completely opposite the conclusion reached by one of the premiere bullet designers in the world.
 
I’m sure you realize that bullets are designed with a velocity window that they perform best in. Driving a bullet outside of this window will have an adverse effect on terminal performance.
Click to expand...

Hidden within this statement is the answer to why most 135gr 10mm Auto loads are only loaded 50fps or so faster than their .40 equivalents. :D
 
Boy, ya gotta hate it when that happens...

I am personally enamored with the Fed Hydro/a-Shoks. If I remember most of the evaluations, they are the most consistent regardless of calibre. I have personal experience of what they will do to two-legged varmints bent on your demise. Horrific and reassuring at the same time, lemme tell ya.

As far as the frangible ammo, I stay away from it. You will be much better served by situational awareness and a well-thought-out defensive plan than any 'magic bullet' or golly-gee-whiz soft/hard/it's there but it's not round. Leave the fun stuff for the woods and plinking. Use the serious stuff for hide defense.

BTW, Triton, I haven't seen Triton ammo on m/any shelves of late. Are you guys still in business, selling exclusively through limited venues, or what?
 
Cecil

As far as the frangible ammo, I stay away from it.
Click to expand...

Please refer to this topic on Triton’s concept of frangible, fragmenting and controlled seperation.

You will be much better served by situational awareness and a well-thought-out defensive plan than any 'magic bullet' <snip> Use the serious stuff for hide defense.
Click to expand...

We agree wholeheartedly with situational awareness

Are you guys still in business, selling exclusively through limited venues, or what?
Click to expand...

Yes, we’re still here and selling through our normal venues. If your having a tough time finding our stuff you can order direct.
 
You gotta be kidding me...

"Knock down? Kill? Disintegrate for after dumping the body..
Don't care what it costs, won't ever shoot it, right."

1) "Knock down." No handgun is powerful enough to knock you over. If it was, you couldn't shoot it without falling over. .454 Casull won't do it, let alone .45 ACP.

2) "Kill." This isn't really the goal, rapid incapacitation is. .22LR kills tons of people but isn't very good at rapidly incapacitating them.

3) "Disintegrate for after dumping the body." You gotta be $#!++!^& me...

4) "Won't ever shoot it, right." You'd have to be nuts to trust your life to ammo that you haven't tested in your gun to make sure it actually functions.

I'd suggest getting a clue before getting a weapon...
 
I am surprised that Remington Golden Sabers have not yet been mention in this thread; IMHO, they are excellent .45 ACP personal-defense rounds, ranking just after Federal HydraShok, which is my "standard of comparison".
 
Castle Bravo,
[[you gotta be kidding me... "]]
Let's see, there are a lot of ammo choices out there because there are a lot of uses and opinions. I wanted to hear some opinions. I can usually learn a lot from the opinions of others. This equally includes the ones I disagree with or choose not to follow.

[[1) "Knock down." No handgun is powerful enough to knock you over.]]
I was trying to make the post both communicative, yet short. Didn't know I was going to have to write it like a lawyer expecting to get picked apart. "Knock Down Power" is a common term. The point there is, and most everyone knows this, that on one end of the spectrum is a frangible bullet and on the other is solid copper. Full delivery of energy vs piercing three targets in a row, etc.

[[2) "Kill." This isn't really the goal, rapid incapacitation is.]]
Different people have different goals. I'm inviting opinion that may vary on the goal. I've heard many cops state that a goal for them IS to kill, beacause of fear of law suits, etc.

[[dumping the body." You gotta be $#!++!^& me... ]]
The first decision after firing is whether to call the cops or not. An informed person MIGHT be correct in having much more fear of placing that call than from the bad guy. Even if the shooting was correct, you are likely to face losing your weapon, home, job, family, have to pay big $$$ to an attorney, and good chance of going to jail no matter what.
It depends on what state & county you live in. Also depends on if the female DA is on her period. Depends on if the judges wife was friendly to him last night. It isn't fun to have to live a the whim of the powerful when it's your entire future on the line & you did nothing wrong.

[[You'd have to be nuts to trust your life to ammo that you haven't tested in your gun]]
I never said I wouldn't test the ammo, did I...

I'd suggest getting a clue before getting a weapon...
On the surface, from your post, it would seem I have "more of a clue" than you do. The obvious point of my post was to invite CONSTRUCTIVE opinions from which I could draw the "clues" of a variety of people, hopefully expanding my own knowledge.
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Personal attacks on others to try and make yourself look better than them is a fundamental personality fault common among grammar school children. Assuming you are older than that, you should try and avoid it. It drives away others & really does not impress anyone but yourself.
If you don't want to change, go hang out on http://talk.shooters.com. There are a lot of cops, ex cops, know it alls, and all around over opinionated jerks there. Including the moderator. They flame each other weekly & make many people avoid the site.
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I'm thankful to all the other posters & will likely end up buying the Quick-Shock ammo when I find some at a good price. Their Hi-Vel also may be the best among the Hydra-Shock & Black Talon crowd.
 
Suggesting that after legally defending yourself the smart thing to do MIGHT be run away or "dumping the body" shows you realize that even a legitimate case of self-defense may cause legal problems for you.

Thinking you could get away with it is wishful thinking. Getting caught doing something like that could get you an extended stay on death row.

Stating that you want ammo that will "disintigrate for after dumping the body" and then listing ammo choices that sound like they would be untracable is going to make people think you are in need of something other than ammo.

No flame intended.
 
I would stick with the combination of most commonly available combined with best performance.


Usually Remington Golden Sabers 230 grain and Federal Hydrashock 230 grain are highly regarded by everyone from armchair pundits (me included) to LEO's to researchers.


And GS 185 grain +P for short barreled .45s.
 
From the "all around over opinionated" jerk...

Let's see... MatthewM wants bullets that disintegrate for when he dumps the body, this naturally being a reasonable course of action following a self defense shooting. :rolleyes:

Hey, MatthewM: have you ever been called a "Mall Ninja"? Just curious. :D

By the way, since you yourself said you "won't ever shoot it," exactly how *DO* you plan to test your ammunition?

Uh...is that smell Troll spoor? Aw, man, not again... :p
 
I prefer good ol' 230 grain Federal Hydrashok round. Many folks who have used this load will tell you about it's excellent inherent accuracy. My Glock 21 is kept filled with these rounds.

The Hydrashok design also allows expansion even at lower velocities seen when you use a shorter barrel .45 ACP pistol, such as a Glock 30 or 36.
 
regarding "rapid incapacitation" versus "killing power"...

several have said rapid incapacitation is the goal, not killing.

If so, why not carry a less than lethal weapon?
Also, what are you "incapicatators" aiming for...?

I dont see how anybody could draw the distinction being made here.

And remember, a dead criminal leaves one less person in the world to bring a civil suit against you.
 
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