Seeking O/U Information

L

LowSider

Inactive
Hello. I am fairly new to shotguns - O/U specifically. With that said, I am very interesting in getting into Skeet/trap/sporting clays. I belong to a range that does trap and there is a Skeet range open to the public one town over so my options are open.

I am looking for an O/U that will fit/exceed my needs. Maybe something with interchangeable barrels.

From my research alone, I am leaning towards a Beretta or a Browning, more so the Browning. Although a sub $1k O/U is appealing, I fully understand the debate between a 'cheaper costing' gun and a Beretta or a Browning, and am willing to spend more for a higher end product ($2-4k ish).

I clearly hear good things about the White Onyx, Citori, and Cynergy so that's what's on the table unless I am overlooking something. However, I do feel slightly overwhelmed with all the different Citori and Cynergy models.



I'm trying to educate myself; on quality, durability, features, weight, and balance.

Specifically, on what stock dimensions fit me... Worst case, I can't find one of these guns to shoot and can only shoulder them.... What are things I should be looking for - fit wise? I know the big ones such as comb, length of pull, swing, balance, ect... but what about them specifically and how can I judge a proper fit for each? What are the signs I should be paying close attention to?

I know there is a difference between trap and Skeet O/U's, but what is it that makes that designation? Is there a happy medium outside of the competition community without having to specialize?


I am looking to be overwhelmed with knowledge and wisdom, not just what a salesman has to say.

Thank you in advanced.
 
Greetings LowSider, and welcome aboard.

Asking for a shotgun that "will fit/exceed" your needs for Skeet/trap/sporting clays is sort of like asking for a racket that will be okay for tennis, badminton and racket-ball. Anyway you look at it, you're going to be making some compromises.

Typically, Skeet and clays guns have lower stocks and shorter barrels than trap guns. I have O/U Skeet guns with 28 and 30-inch barrels and prefer the guns with the 28's; but, the 30's work well, too. My Trap gun is a combo with a 34-inch single barrel for 16-yd and handicap trap and a 32" double barrel for trap doubles. I've tried the 32's on Skeet and clays but they don't swing very well. You can probably get along with a pair of 30-inch barrels. Where the longer barrel (the single 34-incher) gets important is when you start shooting longer yardage trap.

The present trend is towards more horizontal stocks in Skeet and clay guns -- trap guns have had horizontal stocks for some while. For a compromise gun something with a high stock and 30" barrels will probably suit you for some time. There was a time when it was considered normal to have a new gun's stock fit to the shooter. These days, more people are looking for adjustable stocks because the custom stock fitters are getting hard to find.

You can probably adjust to slightly raised trap rib for Skeet and clays, but avoid the really high ones. Of course, you're probably going to have to add a few more screw-in chokes to those that come with the gun. Here's some pretty generic Skeet and Trap guns, with adjustable stocks that will work for cross-over shooting:
Beretta 682 Gold E, Skeet Adj Stock: $4,450
With 30" barrels it will work fine for Skeet and clays and be okay for trap; but, IMHO, the stock is a little low.

Beretta 862 Gold E, Trap Combo Top Single: $4,800
With 30/34" Barrels will work great for trap singles, handicap and doubles and be okay for Skeet and clays.

Citori XS Skeet, Adjustable Comb: $3,319
Although I favor Italian guns, in 30-inch this is an attractive all sports gun.

Citori XT Trap, Adjustable Comb: $3,139
Also available with 30's for a few less dollars that the Skeet version.​
Sorry, I don't know of any magic solution for fitting a stock if you don't have access to the gun. As I've mentioned in previous posts: Two guns can have identical length of pull and comb drops, yet shoot differently. It's difficult to find a decent selection of target guns in a typical LGS. Have you been to Minute Man Sportsman's Club in Billerica, Mass.? Who knows what you may find there. Some of the best gun deals around can be found on gun club bulletin boards. Being able to shoot a trial round is an advantage of buying a used gun over a new one. I think most will agree, the more guns you try out, the more educated your choice will be.

Remember, the opinions expressed here are usually what has worked best for the individual members. Trying to tell you what gun will work best for you is like trying to guess your shoe size. Like guns, you gotta try them on to see if they fit. Buying a target gun should be a fun learning experience and hopefully you'll meet some local shooters.
 
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As usual Zippy pretty much nailed it.:)

Since you stated you're new to shotguns,if you're like the majority of new shooters you don't really know what will or won't work for you.YET;)

All 3 of the guns you mentioned are great guns.but you need to figure out which works the best for YOU.

Does either of the clubs you mentioned rent guns?

You might try this is go to the club and explain your situation,you never know what may happen on guns you might be able to try.

And it may take a while to figure out what does work for you.Myself I prefer Beretta's due to how they "feel" and "handle" for me.

For most folks if you like one you don't care for the other.And it takes more than a couple of boxes of shells through each gun to figure out what works the best for you.

I realize this doesn't answer your question,but it's one of those questions you have to work out for yourself.

Welcome to this fun and aggravating game of clay shooting.:):)


Also here's a link to club's that may be in your area http://www.claytargetsonline.com/index.php
 
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Where in MA?

If in the Woburn area I can put some, if not all the guns on your list in your hand on a Sunday AM. Mass Rifle has an open to the public 5 stand. Come a few times, ask some questions, most any one will let you try their guns. I know that I can put a Benelli SS, CG and Cynergy in your hand.

Most local clubs seem to be the same around here.

Shoot as many as you can prior to buying.

PM if interested.
 
Go to your club and ask to rent or borrow as many of the different types of guns that you can to find what works for you. After market products can be installed to allow for changing the LOP, pitch, cast, drop, etc., so it is possible to have the straight comb for trap and a lower one for sporting or skeet.

Once you get into the categories above the basic "B" guns, guns start to take on better barrel dynamics and specific weights to your requirements, balancing devices in the stock and forearm, stock built to your dimensions, etc. These are typically found on guns in the Blaser/Zoli class and up in the Perazzi/Kreighoff/Kolar class. These guns are NOT cheap by most folks standards. They will last you for hundreds of thousands of rounds and are something to consider down the road if you decide clays are for you, competition is what you want, and you want to be really successful.

Typically, a Beretta fits differently than a Browning - not better or worse, just different. That being said, if one fits you well, odds are the other won't. There is a difference in balance and feel between the older Belgian Browning Superposeds and the newer Citoris - especially in the barrels - the Belgian guns have much better dynamics in that regard as they are lighter from thinner walls.

Even with Beretta, there is a difference between their 68X series and their DT-10 (aka ASE 90) - stocks, barrels, action are different.

No matter which gun you choose to go with, if you stick with at least one of the "B" guns, you should have no problem down the road selling it if you want to stop shooting, move up to a better gun, etc.

Good luck!
 
I have a Beretta 682 Gold E Sporting and its an excellent gun for both skeet and sporting clays... Its not a trap gun, but I rarely shoot trap and I have a field gun that works good enough for when one of my buddies gets a wild hair and wants to shoot trap.. I love my 682 with 30" barrels YMMV...
 
+1 to what has already been said...

I think one of the keys, at this point for you especially, is to pick a gun with some adjustability built into it.

For an all around gun - with a lot of adjustability - I would recommend the Citori XS Skeet model, with adj comb and 30" barrels. The parallel adjustable comb is the key on this gun ...and it maximizes the number of shooters it will fit.

Angled comb guns - if you move up or back on the comb even 1/2" it will change the point of impact. The Citori XS Skeet model is a solid gun / well suited to Skeet and Sporting Clays and even some bird hunting ....and while it may not have a point of impact high enough to be a preferred Trap gun ...its not terrible either. In a 12ga the gun comes in around 8 1/2 lbs - which I find just about right for "general" shooting. Street prices - new on that gun are around $ 2,900 around here ....and even guns bought in this model 10 yrs ago, with thousands of shells thru them, are very desireable on the used market and today, in good shape, demanding easily $ 2,250 - $ 2,500.

For Trap only - I prefer the Browning Citori XT Trap in 32" barrels - same parallel adj comb. The point of impact on the Citori XT - and the weight of the gun ....around 10 lbs - make it pretty clumsy for Skeet and Sporting Clays .....but its a good Trap gun / and worth adding as a 2nd gun in my opinion down the road.

In full disclosure - I own and shoot both the Citori XS Skeet and the Ciotri XT's ....and I like them a lot...but that's not why I recommend them - its because of adjustability and I find they fit 99.9% of the shooters.

Both models fit my hands / build, etc ....where shooters like Zippy prefer the sleeker feel of the Beretta's. There is nothing wrong with the Beretta ...but it is a different feel - especially in the feel of the grip area of the gun. To me, the Beretta feels small - and in a comparable gun with the Citori - the Beretta is often lighter ( kind of like comparing a 12ga Browning Citori to a 20ga Browning Citori ) ... but you need to pick the gun that fits you the best - not what fits me. But going with a paralled and adj comb is a good choice / and a gun easily sold down the road if you want to upgrade to a high end gun - like Perazzi, Blazer, Kolar or Krieghoff.

Multiple barrel sets - are not a great idea - the ribs are usually different and the weight of each barrel is often different.

There are tube sets ( Briley or Kolar primarily ) - where you insert the tubes into a barrel - they're fit specifically - and change the gague. But tubes weigh about 10oz and if you put a 20ga tube set into a 12ga gun - it'll be 10oz heavier and swing very differently. The best way to make a "tube set" work - is to have a stand alone 12ga barrel / then have a "carrier barrel" that is bored out to accept the tubes .... The carrier barrel cannot be shot as a stand alone barrel - it can only be shot with the tubes installed. The idea is for the stand alone 12ga barrel - and the tube sets in 20ga, 28ga and .410 to be identical in weight and balance to the 12ga barrel. Its a great system - but expensive ( around $ 7,500 for the tubes, carrier barrel, etc ) plus the cost of the receiver and the 12ga barrel ( say $ 3,000 ) so at least $ 10,500 when complete.

My competition days are over - so I just went with stand alone guns - and I have Citori XS Skeet models in 12ga, 20ga, 28ga and a .410 ....but it isn't the best way to go. My 20ga, 28ga and .410 are all built on the 20ga receiver - so they are all the same ...( but they are all about 1lb lighter than the 12ga version) .... but even on the 20ga, 28ga, .410 - the triggers on each receiver are a little different, etc ... I spent about $ 10,000 on all 4 guns combined ... /... but I like guns ...and it gives me extra guns for the grandkids, etc - to train new shooters, etc ..
 
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Multiple barrel sets - are not a great idea - the ribs are usually different and the weight of each barrel is often different.
Click to expand...

One exception to this is the use of a "carrier barrel with subgauge tubes. Kolar is the one that first comes to my mind, where the gun comes with a 12 gauge barrel and a "carrier" barrel of lighter weight meant to be exclusively with the tube sets, thereby giving the shooter the same weight and balance. That isn't cheap, but it is VERY effective
 
I just said that ....in a "slightly" more wordy fashion ....but none the less ...now my feelings are hurt ...;)
 
Another plus for the carrier system that isn't realized unless you're a competitive shooter: You don't have to be cleaning your 12-ga barrel before switching to tubes, the carrier system is ready to go. You may not appreciate this until you're in a 12-ga shoot-off that's immediately followed by a smaller gauge.
 
Multiple barrel sets - are not a great idea - the ribs are usually different and the weight of each barrel is often different.
Click to expand...

That's what happens when I multi-task and skimmed your response Jim, trying to get Turkey day stuff done around here.............:o
 
Briley - and probably Kolar - will make a "Carrier Barrel" from a customer supplied barrel .....so if you had two identical 12ga guns ..../ or a 2nd set of barrels .....for the same model ...

Briley would fit the second set of barrels to one receiver ....then bore it out and fit it for the "Tube Sets" ...

Kolar and Krieghoff - both sell sets of new guns with carrier barrel options ...but you're getting up in the $ 20,000 + price range ...for either of those sets.

If you have one gun / and elect to go with tube sets ....many shooters will just leave the 20ga tube sets in the gun --- and shoot the 20ga in 12ga events ....to get rid of the different weight issues. As 7/8oz loads become more common in 12ga as well .... balistically, you give up very little by shooting a 20ga in a 12ga event ....at least in Skeet and Sporting Clays. Trap would be fine with 7/8oz from the 16 - 20 yard line / but I have to admit ...as I go back to the 27 yard line ( and I never earned my way back there for real ) ....I'd want a 12ga ....:D ...regardless of what the ballistics tables say ... and 1 1/8 oz of 7 1/2's .... ( and a 10lb gun ..) ....
 
don't overlook

the SKB shotguns,,getting one with choke tubes and either 20 or 12 will solve
your problems and probably cheaper than those others !!!
 
I looked at the Briley website ....couple of notes on weight and pricing...

Weight for adding tube sets --- depends on barrel length and tube set type you pick - but it varies from 10oz to 15 oz ...

Costs on their website are:
$ 475 + to fit a set of barrels to a receiver ...
$ 500 to bore out a customer supplied barrel into a carrier barrel..

$ 1,750 for ultralight tube sets ...with 4 chokes ( you might want more ) ...
$ 95 to convert inertia triggers ( required on most 28ga and .410's )..

plus shipping and taxes ....

so its a $ 3,000 - $ 4,000 package ..../ and if you bought two new Citori XS Skeet models ( say $ 6,500 with tax ) ....you'd have about $ 10,500 --- maybe as high as $ 12,000 depending on what else you need or want done .... into it for all 4 gagues with a very good system.

At $ 10,500 - $12,000 ...you'd at least want to look and discuss the options from Kolar and Krieghoff ....especially if you could find a used set from a reputable dealer that was traded in on another gun - like DuPont, etc ...
and I see Krieghoff is offering a new 4 barrel set on the K-80 sporting model .....on their website ( with similar weight and swing characteristics )...they say at least ....and I couldn't find a cost / but my hunch is it's around $ 20,000 depeding on the options you pick ...if you don't get too crazy on wood, engraving, etc ...( or it will be a lot more !! ) ...
 
BigJim,
Perhaps it's best not to mention $20K guns unless the OP is totally addicted to shotgunning. :D
We don't want to be scaring off the newbies. :eek:
 
You're probably right ....I certainly don't want to scare anybody / or say that a Browning or a Beretta are not great guns / they are !!

but like you and I've said many times ..... Beretta and Browning give you a lot of gun for the money ....but they aren't the real high end guns .... and sometimes I don't think people understand it - because the most expensive guns found in many gunshops these days are Browning's and Beretta's ...

Just last week my buddy and I were having a conversation with an experienced shotgunner ....not a serious competitor ....but he shoots Skeet at least twice a month with us ....and he had no idea there was a "Carrier Barrel" option out there ...what it was, what it did ....

I was trying to be helpful ...my apologies to OP if I scared you ......
 
I am by no means scared, ha. I asked for as much information as possible. It took years till the point where I was ready to sink big money into high end Italian motorcycles and I figure this isn't too different.
Considering I am far from a novice at this point, I stand by my current price range. Although, I did run into those brands as well as carrier options while I was researching possibilities. Maybe something for the future.

Just as before, my next step is to try shouldering and busting some clays with each gun. I was looking for advice and points I should pay specific attention to, while doing so.


I plan on getting a semi in the near future as well. Would it be better to buy a specialized O/U and then a semi for the other sport to keep from buying two $4k guns at once? Already have a pump.

How does the rib differ on a Skeet compared to a trap gun?
 
SOG

Not sure if this is a good deal, but in the SOG circular
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=430997&highlight=sog

They had a Ruger O/U .20 ga 3” Chambers, 26” Barrels, vault rib, stainless steel frame, auto ejectors, beautiful checkered English straight grip stock, excellent condition. #CC-D218 for $895.00

Sorry, never shot skeet or trap, just saw the add and remembered your post



Edit: had to use that link because the .pdf file wouldn't work for me for some reason
 
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How does the rib differ on a Skeet compared to a trap gun? ​
Typically, Skeet guns have flat ribs and Trap guns have pitched ribs. Depending on shooter's preference, the ribs can be a constant width or tapered towards the muzzle. The Trap ribs are designed to shoot high to accommodate the rising trap target where Skeet ribs are designed to shoot crossing shots. Pictured below is a Skeet model above three Trap models. The bottom two models have adjustable ribs and stocks.

perazzis.jpg

[SIZE=-2]Image credit: Perazzi USA [/SIZE]
 
Semi-autos are not the preferred action choice in any of the shotgun sports ( Trap, Skeet or Sporting clays ) .... although you will see a lot of them on local courses ....and a few, at the higher end national competitions....

I look at a semi-auto more as a compromise tool .....like a travel gun ...where I only want to take 1 gun to shoot a little Skeet, some sporting clays and maybe a little bird hunting. For me the Benelli Super Sport 12ga, synthetic carbon fibre stock, 30" barrel fits that bill pretty well - although there are other options as well out there if you like the gas operated guns vs the inertia guns.

For most serious shooters - a good versatile, well fit, Over Under is a better long term choice for Skeet and Sporting Clays ---- and a separate O/U for Trap because we want to float the target above the barrels for Trap because a Trap target is only a rising target / never a target dropping in out of the trees, etc like sporting - or hard crossers like Skeet....

In motorcycles ....kind of the same thing ....a touring bike is comfortable ...but its certainly no sport bike or cafe racer ...

But in the bigger scheme of things .....if you end up with a good general purpose Skeet and Sporting clays O/U say $ 3,000 - $ 4,000 / then a specialized Trap gun say another $ 3,000 / and a good semi-auto when you just want to shoot it say $ 2,000 ....you're only into these games for about $8,000 - $ 9,000 .... and guns that will last for 3 generations, easily be re-sold if you don't like them or want to upgrade ....and compared to motorycycles or most high end pastimes - even like woodworking $ 9,000 isn't much - when compared to the amout of fun you'll have ...

you still have expenses for shells, targets, lessons, etc ... which is way more than the $ 9K you'll spend on 3 pretty good guns ....( shells and target fees are going to cost you about $ 50 per 100 targets ...times 1,000 a month is $ 500 a month or $6K a year and that's only 1,000 targets a month where a lot of shooters are closer to 2,000 a month ....

games are getting expensive ....but don't compromise too much on your first guns if you know you're serious about this pasttime.

I'm not saying you can't play these games with a good $ 500 pump gun either - because you can - but its not your optimum tool. If you can't afford all 3 primary guns right now - pace yourself ....you might find you like Skeet and Sporting and are not really into Trap ( so you wait for a good used deal to come up on a Trap gun ...) or vice versa ....if you love Trap ...and think Skeet is boring ...go find a great Trap gun / wait for a used Skeet gun to pop up ....

No matter what - have fun with the process ...
 
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