Seeing a pattern in my grouping , Is it me or the gun ?

The temp is being taken on the barrel just in front of the chamber . I have taken the temp of the barrel where the chamber is and it does not seem to get very hot compared to right in front of the chamber but I have not meassred the chamber temp enough to say it does not heat up as much for sure .

Next time out I will try your idea of one shot at a time and let the barrel cool . That will help me on another issue I'm having with first shot velocities .

Let me ask this , would the berral walking do to poor barrel to action seating be consistant ? The reason I ask is I've had some good 10 shot groups where all 10 shots are just about 1 moa . That for me is good shooting and would seem to say It does not happen all the time . Although now that I look at my targets above . Even the those are right around 1 moa or less ,so I think I might have just answered my own question
 
Are you loading one at a time, or the entire mag? One more variable that you can check by loading one at a time. You could possibly be getting bullet setback with recoil; albeit small, yet can be measurable.

I have a target that I recently shot comparing factory to my handloads. I shot out of a lead sled to minimize movement. Three factory rounds went left of POA and were about 1 MOA, my loads went to POA and all in the same hole.

Having the barrel trued to the receiver pretty much can remove stringing caused by heat. Check with some of the custom rifle makers. Check with some of the competitors. Once the barrel starts heating up, very small variances on the rifle become large variances at a distance.

Trick to one hole targets is consistency in everything; shooter included.
Good Luck and definitely keep us posted.
 
Are you loading one at a time, or the entire mag?
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I have a 4 rd mag

When shooting 4 shot strings I load the mag full . When shooting 10 shot strings I load 4rd , 3rd , 3rd .

Your not the first person to talk about bullet set back . I had it suggested as a possible problem for this and my first shot lower velocity issues . I have not ruled it out because I have not measured the bullets in the mag after a few shots . I plan to do that next time out . I want to measure that very thing on some hunting loads I'm working on ( for a different rifle ) that I don't want to crimp . That means I'll have my comparator with me to check bullet set back on all my loads . I meant to take it last time but forgot it .

The only reason I'm really giving bullet set back any thought is I just switched to a FL neck bushing die and I now have less neck tension then I used to . Before IMO I had enough neck tension to shot out of a AR10 and alike . Now just enough to where I can't push the bullet into the case by hand . Meaning I place the tip of the bullet against my bench and push on the case rather hard . If the bullet moves I went down a bushing until I could not force the bullet deeper by hand .
 
Metal God, how still can you hold a rifle on target (minimum reticule movement) with an unloaded rifle held hard against your shoulder?

How still can you hold a rifle on target (minimum reticule movement) with an unloaded rifle held but not touching your shoulder?

Do both ways have less reticule movement on target than you can hold a loaded one you're getting ready to shoot?

If they're not all very small and the same size, well. . .you know what the problem is.
 
well. . .you know what the problem is.
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Oh ! I know the problem is me , I'm just trying to understand what I''m doing wrong and how to fix it .

I will have an answer for you on how still I can hold the rifle after my next range trip . I don't have any where to check that here . I don't dare take my rifles out side here in Californistan . I'm in a very Urban area with a school across the street . Don't think I want to pull on that thread .

I will say I do believe the reticle moving does have a little to do with My bi-pod and rifle set up . I shot another guys rifle that had a rock solid fixed bi pod the other day . I was able to hold that rifle very still compared to mine . I then tried to use just a front bag rather then a bi-pod with my rifle and was able to hold the reticle much more still . The problem I was having with the front bag is that it would smash down after a few shots or move in some way that I was having to adjust it all the time . I hate that when I'm shooting 150rds that day and I need to adjust my front rest every 3 to 5 shots . I feel I can get behind the rifle more consistently with a bi-pod I just can't hold the rifle as still .

None Of my shooting buddy's are in to shooting as much as me . I have one friend that goes shooting all the time but you can't get him to stay longer then a hour or two . I have another friend thats very knowledgeable about shooting but is so busy in his life he never goes shooting .

Why do I say this . I'm often at the range for 8 or 9 hours working on things by my self . Alot of the time I can work through an issue by asking here and applying that info at the range . Then there's days like Sunday when it seems nothing I do works . It's those days I need somebody there to slap me around and tell me what I'm doing wrong .

I should start asking for help from the Range Officer or fellow shooters while at the range . I would love to have somebody willing to just sit there and load my rifle for an hour so I don't know if it's loaded so I can work on my flinch .

There was something I used to do but have not done it in a while . That is take my target 22lr with me and when I start to feel or see a flinch . I'd put down the 308 and just plink with the 22 to work on the fundamentals and just relax . I would then go back to the 308 and be more relaxed and the flinch would be gone-ish :D
 
Flinch can be hard to detect

Unless you do the thing where someone else hands you the gun without you knowing the status---loaded or not loaded. If I shoot the 270 more than about 8 or 10 rounds, I start to get groups that open up. That is me, not the gun.

This suggestion may get a lot of gaff, but when I am shooting I dry fire whatever gun I am using before shots. Bench rest shooters evidently do this all the time, with no ill effects on the firing mechanism. These guns I shoot are all mine, and if I screw one up, I pay for the new parts etc. So far, none of them have complained and the primers don't show any signs of the firing pin going deep.

Dry firing is my way of prepping for a shot, just like a practice swing before hitting the golf ball. It is a way of refreshing muscle memory and technique---gently squeezing the trigger until it breaks.

One thing that seems to be consistent for me is the gun is seldom to blame for bad accuracy. If things don't go well on a given day, instead of searching for reasons with the equipment and bullets, I focus between my ears and work on that part of the combo. Not to say things haven't gone wrong with equipment, just that 90% of the time it is the loose nut behind the butt pad.

YMMV :D
 
Dry firing is fine with the modern rifles. Some of the rifles of yesteryear had poor firing pin metallury and that made the pins quite brittle.

I likewise agree that I am usually the accuracy problem. I have contemplated stopping shooting flat bottom rifles. Shooting the flat bottoms is screwing up my ability to shoot round bottom rifles. Laying the rifle on the rest, putting my cheek on the stock just to the point my stubble touches the stock, playing with mechanical adjustments, putting about 1 oz of shoulder pressure on the butt, and tapping the trigger; is making it hard for me to shoot real world rifles.:mad:
 
Dry firing is my way of prepping for a shot, just like a practice swing before hitting the golf ball
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Thanks I'll do some dry firing It's kinda the same thing when I jump to my 22lr and practice then go back to the 308 . . Its Savage with accu-trigger as well and I have both rifles set up similarly .

aop4.jpg


The trigger on the 22 is around 3-1/4lbs and the 308 is 2lbs . I like to have a little more trigger pull on my practice rifle so I have to concentrate more on all aspects of the trigger pull .

The screws and the torque wrench arrived today . I was able to remove the stripped SCREWS . I stripped the other one out trying to remove it . Thank god my step dad is a retired tool maker . He came over with some custom easy outs and other tools he made and bada-bing bada-bang the screws were out in less then 3 min :) .

After playing around with the torque wrench I would say I had over tightened the screws by a few foot pounds :eek: yep not inch pounds but ft pounds . The other thing that did not help the whole thing was the fact my manual states to use a 5/32 wrench but a #4 metric fits much better . The 5/32 is just a tad to small and could have contributed to the stripping of the screws in the first place .

I went ahead and cleaned inside the stock and really gave the gun a good once over sense I had the stock off for the first time . I then put it back together per the guy in the link above . Only difference I have the back screw a 10lbs to start . I may back it off the 5lbs and start there when I go shoot on Tuesday .

Thank you all for the help . I'll update you on Tuesday how it went . If you guys have any other advice before I go let me know so I can see if it will help .

Bart : clear as day in my manual it says I should check the torque on the action screws before and after every outing :rolleyes: . Is this common for firearms ? I find it odd . How many shooters check the torque on there action screws every time they go shooting ? Do they all come loose often or is this an Accu-stock thing ?

Renolds & Redneck : Do you guys think those groups I posted in the OP are the shooter (me) and not the rifle ? If so , what do you think I was doing wrong ? That first pic is a 10 shot string fired in under 5 min . loading 4rds then 3 then the last 3 . The grouping looks to me like two distinct groups . What do you guys think I was doing to be so inconsistently consistent :)

Does anybody think it's a parallax issue and I can get behind the rifle consistently in two different positions ?

Could canting the rifle from left to right during the same string cause that at 100yds ? I have a anti cant level on the rifle and for the most part the rifle is level for every shot but who knows , when I fire the gun I'm no longer looking at the level .
 
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UPDATE

I went shooting today and I believe I have some things worked out but not sure if there good things . I did the testing the way Stan Pete says to do it with one difference . I started the back screw at 15lbs and It worked exactly the way he said it would . My first group was 1.5 moa the next a little less till I hit 30inch-lbs with a .7 moa group . At 35lbs the group started to open up and 40lbs it was over 1 moa again . :D woo hoo write ? WRONG !!! I readjusted the rear screw back to 30in-lbs and just wanted to check the front screw because it turned out the same torque was best for both . When I checked it the screw was loose and I was able to give it about a 1/4 turn before the torque wrench broke at 30lbs . GRRR :mad: at that point I have no idea what torque gave me that .7moa group so I started over with the front screw at 40lbs . Long story short . Same thing happened again , the front screw got loose . This whole proses took a couple hours and not all had to do with the testing of this rifle . There was another guy there that had the same rifle but put a different stock on it . It was some Tacticool thing. I think it was called a XLR http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...=jkJaUsG7JIiqyAGalIDwCw&sqi=2&ved=0CFIQ9QEwCg It was pretty cool and I was able to shot it later in the day .

Anyways after talking with him about my issues . He said he would get two separate groups in the same sting as well with the accu-stock and had other issues as well and is why he changed the stock . While talking about all this I asked what he torqued the new stock too . The XLR recommends torquing both screws to 65lbs . That seemed like alot compared to what Stan was saying but it is a different stock so I'm sure it's right . I went back and loosened the screws back up and re-torqued it the front screw down to 60lbs and stripped the screw . ---- Just kidding :) I crack me up . :D -- I then put the rear screw at 20lbs and started testing again . The rifle no longer changed group sizes as I put more torque on the rear screw and if it did I did not notice it . The rifle and I were now shooting 1 moa or a little under . the screws did not get loose again and that is where I left it for now .

I probably should have tried it at 50lbs on the front screw but I just blew right past that and went from 40 to 60 lbs . Right now it set at 60lbs in front and 35lbs in back . I will add at this torque I do not get 2 different groups in the same string and I shot a few 6 and eight round strings . How ever when I first started the testing I did get the double grouping but that was when the front screw was getting loose at the same time i was torquing down the back one .

I'm thinking of getting a new stock ( not the one in link above ) but I'll work with this one a bit more and see how it goes .

I shot well today as far as keeping the rifle still . I could keep the reticle to 1/4 moa or less of movement and that was much better then last time out .

I did try taking 2 to 3 breaths before the hold and all that seemed to do was make my heart beat faster and I had to wait for it to slow down to shoot . so the one deep breath exhale half and hold worked real well for me today .

Dry firing was a big help I feel because I did not leave the rifle . I was a little surprised that I would flinch on a dry fire some times :rolleyes: what's up with that ? I do feel it helped I I will be doing it more . Although I knew dry firing can help work on trigger pull and flinch thanks for reminding me of it .

I forgot to have someone load the rifle for me and when looking back on the day I think I could have had one of the guys I was talking with help me out with that but oops I forgot .
 
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Yep That would be one of the things I'm going to try . Here are a few pics of my action and stock/bedding system . It's a little different then what I have seen before when it comes to how the action sits in the stock . There are some big time valleys to fill it looks like to me . Is that what I would have to do and is that much bedding material OK to have in one spot ?

rsat.jpg


mwl4.jpg


here some stuff that looks like it would fill those deep pockets
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/647161/devcon-plastic-steel-bedding-compound-putty-1-lb
 
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Heat shouldn't be a factor with that barrel..It's usually with light barrels and it usually causes a vertical string. Not sideways. Somethings moving and it pretty much has to be the stock . I thought those Savages were aluminum bedded and floating...guess not
 
Thanks Bart , I'll check that out and I found the other stuff for $20 cheaper . If I do bed the action . My main concern is having a thick enough compound that will stay in the deep grooves and not just run down into magwell or the trigger area .This is why I like the putty idea . If you check the pic looking down the stock . You can see that the action makes contact on the center rib and up high on the 2 sides . The rest is hollow and or open space that would need to be filled . You can also tell the the action make very little cantact on the rib . You can see the marks in the first pick on the action and center rib where they touch .

I went to the range again today and tried the torque at 50 in front and 30 in back . The front screw came loose again . I kept a close eye on the screws and it seems to come loose in the 30 to 40 rounds fired area . The rifle was shooting OK for the first 20 to 30 rds . I could shoot just under moa and yes most guys would and should be happy with that . Problem for me is I know the rifle can and has done much better even with factory and my loads . I have a load worked up thats great in every rifle I or any body else has shot it through . ( 38.5gr Viht N-540 / 190 smk / WLR primer LC-11 case / OAL 2.830 ) I have shot and or have had somebody shoot that load in 7 different rifles including my FCP-K and Ruger American . All shot sub moa with it . 2 other Savages , 2 Rem 700s , Nemesis , my FCP-K and Ruger american . I now can barely get MOA out of the load :rolleyes: .

I sent an Email to Savage regarding my issues I'm having . They have been pretty good so far but I have not heard back from My latest email .Well I got an email back right away stating they received the email and would get back to me . It sounded like they kicked the issue up to the next level of technicians . I even asked if bedding the accu-stock is doable or do they recommend against it . I'm curios what they are going to say about that .
 
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Well I got the reply back from Savage , Torque both screws to 40lbs in any way I want , It does not matter . although I have had the stock at that torque before I can't be 100% sure both screws were at that toque at the same time . Only because the front screw always comes loose and I have never known what the back screw was at the moment the front let loose . I'll torque it down again both to 40lbs and go from there . I'm already in to the test for about 120rds . I sure hope this issue is solved soon . I only have so much powder, bullets and cases of the confirmed accurate load left .

They did not answer the bedding question . Maybe I should ask again . They do not seem to engaging over there .
 
UPDATE

Thought I'd update this thread . I started a new thread regarding the stock ,action screws and bedding the accu-stock based on what I learned in this one .

After finding out my action screws were coming loose and that was causing my grouping problems . I went on a fact finding mission on how best to correct it .That mission took me to the ends of the earth and back .

I first started by just doing a simple torque test like Stan Pete . That seemed to work at first . I was able to shrink my groups and stop the double grouping by doing the torque test . Problem was that the action screws would still come loose causing the problems to come back .

I then had the great Idea to bed the acc-stock . Bedding the stock was not all that hard but did not seem to help the rifle . With the bedding in place the rifle shot better then it had been shooting but not better then it ever had . The fact the rifle was not shooting better then it ever had and the accu-stock was never intended to be bedded . I popped the bedding out and started over .

While doing all this I found that the action when torqued to 40lbs as Savage recommends does not bottom out or make contact with the spine of the bedding system . The action was floating in the accu-stock only supported by the side ribs of the stock and the recoil lug on the receiver . That did not seem right to me so I contacted Savage again and asked if that is in fact how the system was intended to work . They told me the 40# is accurate and the action is floating-ish . Meaning the recoil lug and sides of the receiver are the only things that should be making contact with the bedding system/stock . The action is not intended to bottom out on the spine/bottom of the bedding system .

Knowing for sure now how the system was intended to work I was ready to start all over on load development with the action torque to 40lbs and putting lock-tite on the screws but a couple guys talked me out of that and thank goodness they did . What he/they recommend was use one of the loads that had shot well before and do a toque test with that load rather then starting over again . Thats what I did and to make my long update short . Torque is 40lbs in front , 45lbs in back and the rifle is shooting very close to as good as it has ever shot . I now have 3 confirmed sub moa loads with one shooting crazy good . I shot a few .5 moa groups with 178gr A-MAX , 40.5gr IMR-4064 , Rem case , WLR primer . The other good load is - 175gr smk , 40.7gr IMR-4895 , WCC case , WLR primer .

In closing I'd like to thank you guys for helping me out here
 
Thanks for the detailed account of your journey

Accuracy can be sooooo elusive with some firearms. And after encountering these kinds of issues it can become an obsession to get them figured out. Glad to hear you are getting satisfaction with this one. It is good to read about other shooters that have tussled with a gun trying and trying to get it figured out. Good job!
 
Metal God,

You might want to try Vihta Vuori N140 powder with 175 SMKs with you Savage FCP-K. I have a relatively new 10 FCP-K and have found that it really liked N140 powder with both 150 SMKs and 175 SMKs. I haven't really tuned it for 168 SMKs yet but it is very promising. N140 powder is hard to find but it turned out to be worth the effort to find it.

The 175's with N140 shot best so far and averages under 0.45 inches at 100 yards for all the various loads I have tried. That says the loads at different velocities and seating depths all are pretty accurate. The best load with N140 and 175 is just under 0.3 inches and most are under 0.5 inches.
N140 loads beat the H4895 loads by 0.2 inches over all and 0.25 inches for the best load.

I am using a Sinclair F-Class bipod and a Protektor rear bag. With that set up the rifle is incredibly stable and I see no vibration in the 36X Sightron scope that I use for load testing. The only time I see heart beat is when I have a cheek weld that it too tight. When that happens, I step away from the bench and try to relax a bit. I find that I get really tight with my set up when I am trying too hard. That messes me up my accuracy more than staying comfortable and trying not to fixate on making the next group the best group ever.

I also haven't had any loosening of the action screws and I haven't bedded either of my model 10 Savages. The 10 FP without the Accu-Stock averaged under 0.630 inches for the 1630 hand loaded groups I have shot through it before the barrel started to wear out. (The old 10 FP just went back to Savage for a new barrel.)
The new 10 FCP-K has average 0.537 for the 187 groups that I have shot through it. I do believe that the Accu-Stock probably was part of the reason for the improved accuracy.
 
Yep I here and have had good results with VIHT powders . I have not used N-140 But I do have a pretty good target load with N540 pushing 190gr smk and a good hunting load with N550 pushing 150gr spitz bt . This powder cost quite a bit more then the rest so I'm not sure How much I'll use it . There's a couple others I'd try first before stepping up in cost ( Varget , RL-15 and 8208 xbr ) but thanks for the heads up
 
Metal God,

The price per pound for the Vihta Vuori 8 pound cans is at least $ 2 per pound less than for the 1 pound cans. Once I found my rifle really liked N140, I have bought a couple of 8 lb cans and was pleased with the price break.

Vihta Vouri powders are still more expensive than Reloader or Hodgdon but it shoots so much better in my .308, that I figured it was worth it to me.

I never could get Varget to shoot as well as Reloader 15 and neither shot as well as H4895. BL-C(2) and Benchmark also didn't yield good results in my rifle, but my buddy with an identical rifle seems to have had good luck with both of them. I guess that I should conclude that there is no such thing as a pet load that works in every rifle of the same caliber. As I said they are identical rifles (both are Savage Model 10 FCP-Ks with 2 lb trigger pulls). The chambers are slightly different lengths though as you would find as a result of normal manufacturing processes.
 
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