Seeing a pattern in my grouping , Is it me or the gun ?

M

Metal god

New member
went shooting today and shot some 4rd strings and some 10rd strings . most of the time when shooting in general the hits seem pretty random . but I got some patterns today and have seen this before . It appears I get two different groups in the same string and wanted to get your thoughts on what you think is going on .

first pic is a 10 shot group the rest are 4 shots
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EDIT . just had a though , could it be the cheek weld and sight picture is not consistant ?
 
100yds and I'll check the action screws . The rifle is a Savage FCP-K with accu-stock . IMO one of the best factory bedded rifles out there . The rifles has 930rds through it and I have never even looked at the action screws :eek: Ok i've seen them but that's about it . :)
 
good call on the bedding . Just checked the front screw and I was able to turn it quite easy . Before I do any more I need to get the torque specs .

EDIT : Well just went back and looked at all my targets for the last month and a half or 600rds of 4 and 5 shot groups for my load work ups . I can see the pattern in many of them . Some not as much as others but I'm 100% sure the rifle was doing this from almost the start of my reloading and testing . :mad:

Oh well I guess I'm upset about this because I feel I waisted money on materials but at the same time I think I may have many more good loads then I thought . I'm pretty sure I have 3 good loads right now with the way the rifle is shooting now . Those in theory should get better and some of those other groups that were just over 1 moa that I dismissed may shrink up in to the sub moa area .
 
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I suggest getting a set of socket head screws for your rifle and a torque wrench with a hex tip to fit the screws.

Loosen them after each shooting session. Then torque them back to whatever amount gives best accuracy. My guess is somewhere between 40 and 50 inch-pounds.
 
Mystro : the 10 shot group was done in 3 min or less , the 4 shot groups are under a min for sure . I've been keeping track of my ammo temp and my barrel temp before each string . I never start a string with the barrel more then 10* hotter then the ammo . The ammo tends to never be more the 2* off the ambient temp so that means the barrel is never more then 12 degrees hotter then it is outside when I start . There was a day when the temp was 96* and the barrel would not cool down fast enough so I shot it when the barrel was a little hotter . On that day it would take up to 30 min for the barrel to cool to the outside temp . ( always shooting from a covered shooting area )

I don't want to discount your point of the barrel heating up and there being a POI shift . I feel these are to distinct for that . The barrel in these groups did not walk over it appears it jumped over .

EDIT : did some simulating of firing a string and I believe my timing above is off . These times will now reflect what I believe would be the max amount of time to complete the string . At times I'm sure it would be less but these are the max

10 shot string = 5 min

4 shot string = 2 min
 
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While you're at it, check the barrel channel to assure that the barrel is fully free-floated and not within 1/16" of the channel at any point. With standard hunting rifle contours, barrels can vibrate that much, especially near the end of the forend. If there's a barrel pressure-point, consider removing it for more consistent accuracy.
 
Thanks for the heads up on making sure the barrel is not touching the stock . I did check that out and although the stock was loose-ish .It did appear it was not making contact with the barrel . The rifle has a thick heavy fluted barrel so there is not a whole lot of whip going on and there is enough room between the barrel and the stock that I can see the bedding system inside .

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Use a dollar bill to slide down the barrel and make sure it clears all the way back to the action.

If you really want to get involved, here is a good break-down of finding the best torque settings. Otherwise, just do 15 in-lbs on both and hope it's good enough. Add a little if it's not.;)
 
Thanks Brian but I no longer use the dollar bill trick . My Ruger American would allow a dollar bill to slide freely in between the barrel and the stock . The problem is the stock has way to much flex and the stock and barrel would touch anyway .

The Savage has close to no flex in the stock and I can slide 2 playing cards stacked together up and down the barrel Chanel . the playing cards are 22 thousandths and the dollar is 5 thousandths

I suggest getting a set of socket head screws for your rifle and a torque wrench with a hex tip to fit the screws
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Well again it looks like you have a really good idea there Bart :)

Before I do any more I need to get the torque specs .
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FAIL

I was not going to say anything but what the hey . Like any good heavy handed gun smith I stripped the head out on one of the screws . The screws are tight but I have no idea what the torque is and now I can't get it out . I talked with Savage , they're sending me new screws . I guess I'll wait for the screws and most likely shoot the rifle before attempting to remove the screws . If the rifle shoots real well I'll wait to fix what was not broke :rolleyes:
 
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I'd glass bed it and be done. Even though it is an Accustock the fit between receiver and bedding block isn't going to be perfect. They are both mass produced and there will be slight variations between the two surfaces. Glass bedding will remove all those variations and when done properly give you perfect mating surface for receiver and stock.

Order up some replacement screws as well from Savage and get everything working properly.
 
cheek rest is pretty tight and does not move when shooting .

I went shooting today to see how the rifle would act with the action screws being what I believe is to tight now. I had a pretty big POI shift from the last time out with loads the rifle was zeroed for . I'll start with saying I was not shooting well today , to be more specific . I could not get the reticle to stop moving . Half the time I was trying to time the reticle between jumps . I was not having a good day and that is why I'm not sure what to think about my grouping . The two different groups in one string thing seems to be gone although 1 of the groups had the look of two groups but it could have been a random thing .

I shot a few loads that had been shooting well before ( sub moa ) and now only one is still sub moa . Thing is that could have been me not shooting well . I guess I'll wait for the screws to get here . Replace them and torque them down correctly before waisting any more ammo . After that , I'll take what I thought were good loads before and see if they are in fact good loads .
 
I could not get the reticle to stop moving.
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Are you holding the rifle against your shoulder as well as gripping the stock with both hands, one on the fore end and the other on the grip?

If so, it's your pulse beat that's moving the rifle and causing the reticule to move around.

Take three deep breaths, then hold your breath while aiming; that may help. If you don't get your shot off within 15 seconds of cutting off your breathing, stop then start over.
 
then hold your breath while aiming; that may help.
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You can also try exhaling about half of your air (or more) then holding your breathe. Personally I am much more relaxed only holding a portion of my breathe than with my lungs full of air. Try it.

Not sure exactly what the gremlin is in your set up. You might try timing your shots; as in really waiting for the barrel to cool. Perhaps take 10 minutes between shots with the action open between shots; or take two or three at a time, then the lengthy break between groups. I would suspect barrel heating, could be a barrel to receiver mating issue. Groups appear to consistently move right/left. Just a thought.
 
Thanks guys , I do hold my breath . I take one deep breath in and exhale about half and hold . I will try taking a couple more just before the hold and see if that works .

You might try timing your shots; as in really waiting for the barrel to cool. Perhaps take 10 minutes between shots with the action open between shots; or take two or three at a time
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This must not be the thread I talked about barrel temp in but I keep track of my ammo temp as well as my barrel temp before each string . I try to start each string of the day at the same ammo and barrel temp . That temp changes from day to day do to the ambient temp . The other day it was 91* out so my barrel never got below 89* . About a month ago I was shooting when it was 70* out and my barrel barely past 90* after a string .

Bart : I have one hand ( palm & thumb) on the side of the stock , 3 fingers from that hand under and gripping the stock and that hand is what I use to pull the gun into my shoulder as well as pull the trigger , The other hand is squeezing the rear bag and I'm pretty sure the hand on the bag is not touching the rifle at all .

I've talked about my reticle moving a little when I take aim but the other day it was moving double if not triple the amount I'm used to . There was a point that I was trying to time when my reticle was with in a 1" area of my intended POA . I have become to except my reticle to move about 1/4 to 1/2 moa but the other day it was moving at times as much as 1.5 moa . I was shooting 100yds .
 
This must not be the thread I talked about barrel temp
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I realize that you did discuss this earlier in this thread. Where are you taking the temp of the barrel? Barrel receiver mating would be where the heat is effecting that area of the barrel; which might retain heat differently than where you are measuring. Maybe Maybe not. Just my first thought regarding your gremliins.
YMMV
 
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