Secondary pressure spikes in 223

603Country

New member
a recent thread about using BL-C(2) powder in the 223 brought up the issue of potential secondary pressure spikes. Naturally, since I have some of that powder, that concerns me. So I did some research on the issue. Understand that I am not speaking from the position of having great knowledge on this, but rather from a position of wanting more info.

What I found was that BL-C(2) is just one of the powders that can, in certain circumstances, have secondary pressure spikes. If a person has the wrong combination of barrel characteristics, several powders can give problems. AA2230 is also one of them, and is a powder I use also.

As I understand it, those 'wrong' barrel characteristics would be: over 20 inches long; worn bore; rough bore, and shooting light bullets in that barrel.

With that in mind, as soon as the gunsmith will give me my rifle back, it'll have a 20 inch expensive custom barrel on it. And I am wondering if perhaps now I can use the BL-C(2) and AA2230 (and H335) and my favorite little bullets (Nosler 40 gr BT's) and not worry about the secondary pressure spikes.

I know that Unclenick is knowledgable on this issue. Any info or opinions he, or any of you, can share would be appreciated.
 
a recent thread about using BL-C(2) powder in the 223 brought up the issue of potential secondary pressure spikes.

I have read a few threads about secondary spikes, my opinion, those posting could not read right and up and did not know where the bullet was when the spike occurred.

I am the fan of the running start, I want my bullets to have 'the jump'.

F. Guffey
 
Bluetoopper,

Some folks use "Secondary Spike" to refer to SEE (secondary explosion effect) or detonation, which is, indeed, rare. That's not what it refers to here, though. Here they are radial expansions that occur down barrel when the bullet has moved out faster than the powder can make gas to keep up with expansion. As it burns, though, it builds enough pressure behind its own mass to propel that mass to catch with and slam into the base of the bullet. The resulting radial expansion of the metal sets up a transverse wave that shows up in strain gauge readings at the chamber looking like a chamber pressure spike, even though there's actually no excess pressure at that location. What is seen is actually a reflection of the collision that momentarily stressed the bore radially further down. Instruments that read only chamber pressure, like copper crushers and piezo transducers, don't see the reflected wave, as their mounts tend to move with it. You have to use strain gauge instrumentation to pick it up.

Texas gunsmith Charlie Sisk had some photos up on, I think, THR or 24 Hr. Campfire at one point, showing some .338's barrels he had blown the muzzles off of with about ten rounds of a load that created a particularly bad secondary spike of this type. Jim Ristow of RSI, maker of the Pressure Trace instrument has an article that discusses this starting about half way down. He describes borescoping a ringed 223 barrel that had been beat on by enough rounds that they caused that effect, and seeing separate rings corresponding to how far the barrel had been set back for rechambering.

Some folks are in denial that the phenomenon is real, instead thinking it must be some instrumentation phenomenon. I was in that camp until Sisk put his blown up muzzles photos up. That was enough proof in the pudding for me.


603Country,

The secondary spikes seem to care mainly about powder burn rate and bullet mass. Barrel condition will affect friction, but friction is down around 3-6% of the resistance against pushing a bullet down the tube (the rest is bullet inertia), which I don't expect to be enough difference to help you out much. I'd be looking at a powder like Reloader 10X or even 4198 for a 40 grain bullet in the .223. Unfortunately, buying a Pressure Trace and putting a gauge on the barrel is about the only way to be sure of what's happening in your particular gun.
 
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From what I've read, the spike occurs pretty much only in long barrels, and rarely occurs in barrels of 20 inches or less. My barrel is now 20 inches long.

In one particular recorded instance of the spike, it happened at 21.6 inches of the barrel (in two cases). I can't imagine that it would be 21.6 inches in every case, because it depends on too many factors. Further, because of the variables involved, such as a worn barrel or really rough bore, I wouldn't think that the secondary pressure spike could be predicted in any barrel or at any point in the barrel. The variables or factors I refer to are:

- worn (loose) bore
- rough bore, either pitted or rusty
- long barrel, though what qualified as long wasn't stated, but was over 20"
- light bullet for the burn rate of the powder

I may have left a couple of those factors out, but these I remember. The article also suggested that the secondary pressure spikes would not normally allow for great accuracy, since it would affect the barrel residence time of the bullet and the bullet exit would vary with the inconsistent barrel harmonics. Therefore, it suggested that if you were getting great accuracy you are not having issues with that secondary pressure spike.

So...I don't fear for my life, but I do worry a bit about my new expensive barrel. Since I mostly use H335 and now have a new supply, this whole thing becomes moot. But, I have a good bit of BL-C(2) and AA2230 and intend to use it with my 40 gr Noslers, which is the bullet I launch most often in my 223, though I suppose I could just use those powders behind the 64 gr Nosler BSB or 65 gr Sierra GK. Minor issue, but I probably won't live long enough to use up those powders behind those bullets. I'll have to explain all this to my grandson, so he won't have to read all these posts after I'm gone.
 
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From what I've read, the spike occurs pretty much only in long barrels, and rarely occurs in barrels of 20 inches or less. My barrel is now 20 inches long.

If you want to see a secondary spike chamber an 8mm57 in a 30/06 chamber then pull the trigger. There is a chance the receiver will be rendered scrap, there is also a chance the case head will fail.

F. Guffey
 
Boy am I glad my barrels are only 16 & 18 inches long and use 55 grain or heavier bullets. I have at times thought about using light weight bullets for my 243, but I think I will just stick to the 85, 95 and 105 grain bullets for that one.

Thanks 603 that is good info to know.

Jim
 
Then there was B-Square, they decided to blow up a rifle, it was an M1917, they almost gave up when they switched to pistol powder. They did manage to split the barrel, when finished the barrel took on a flower design.

I do not have problems with long barrels, the longer the barrel the slower the powder.

F. Guffey
 
Jim243, don't take what I said as gospel. You know where I got the info...the internet.:) Unclenick would be the person most likely to have the best info, but I'm trying to understand as much as I can on the issue. Being an engineer, I always want to understand things rather than just hear it and believe. Doesn't always work that way though. My plan going forward is to keep using the H335 as my primary powder behind the 40 gr Noslers and the BL-C(2) behind the 64 gr Nosler BSB bullets. I've used a lot of AA2230, but always behind the 65 gr Sierra GK.

My gunsmith just told me that my rifle should be ready late this coming week. I'm excited.
 
I have been using BLC2 for about 30 years in a Rem. 700 in 222 Rem. BLC2 is my #1 choice for the 222 for accuracy. Although my choice primer to go with it is Rem. 7 1/2 do to it is what gives best accuracy. That might be what the spikes are about. How did you find pressure spikes?
 
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Longshot,

They show up in strain gauge measurements of pressure (see images below). BL-C(2) is popular, and its fine with heavier bullet weights for sure, but it is 7.62 powder. The version the military likes for 5.56 is sold as H335. Same powder, but faster burn rate due to lower surface deterrent concentration.

Whether it has caused your guns any issue or not depends, in part, on bullet weight. Bore scope examination is the only way I know to look for a problem positively. You can ring a barrel a little and never notice it on the target for the same reason some pitted barrels can still shoot pretty well.


Bluetopper,

Set down the hack saw. Pop the cap off a bottle of brew. Relax. Don't worry. There's no need for anything as drastic as a muzzlectomy.

These spikes reliably disappear if you either increase bullet weight or change to a powder with a faster burn rate for the cartridge and bullet weight.


"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity."
Homer Powley​

"Perhaps there is no more persistent crank than the Rifle Crank. He has more theories to the square inch than there are hairs on a dogs back."
Theodore Roosevelt III​

603Country,

Well, you've gone and opened a can of worms. With kind permission to hot link from Jim Ristow at shootingsoftware.com, take a look at the two misbehaving .223 loads below. One has a muzzle velocity of about 3100 fps, and the other about 3500 fps, but notice the secondary spikes start and peak in about the same number of milliseconds. You can bet the two different velocity bullets are not the same distance down the barrel when these peaks occur. As near as I can tell by tweaking QuickLOAD for pressure match, it works out the 40 grain bullet's pressure peak occurs right about the time it would exit a 20” barrel, but the 55 grain bullet is only about 17.5” down the barrel. Assuming it took some time for the barrel distortion to travel to the gauge at the chamber, the actual bullet positions would be closer to the breech. The peak is additive to the chamber pressure curve, further confusing matters.

sampletracebump.gif


Bigbump.jpg


And then, just to add insult to injury, a load that I measured at a snail's 2792 fps @ 15 ft:

Dads%2003A3%20and%20M2%20ball_zpsyfkytj0t.gif


The tiny secondary spike starts late, but peaks at about the same time as the others. The bullet would have been about 12.5 inches down the bore at the time of the peak. Indeed, if you look through RSI's stuff, only their 7 mm STW load has different timing; a peak at around 1.3 ms.

Nosler.jpg


So, by now you should be questioning everything you thought you knew affected where the bullet was when these secondary “pressure” readings occur. That coincidental peak timing is exactly why I thought it was some kind of instrumentation anomaly when I first saw the effect. It doesn't seem to matter what the chambering is, or what final velocity the bullet is, much less any differences in barrel condition or friction. That first plot is for a moly-coated bullet, demonstrating that reduced friction doesn’t affect the peak timing.

But the temptation to think it’s just the instrumentation is roundly knocked down by the fact you can make the phenomenon stop with heavier bullets or faster powder. Plus, there is the 800 lb gorilla in the room, Charlie Sisk's blown-off muzzles. These both say, no, unless you believe you are living in the Matrix, it's not just a computer illusion.

It dawned on me eventually that what the two .223's and the '03 might have in common was they were all guns with 24” barrels. The 7 mm STW probably had a 26” barrel, as a lot of longer case magnum sporting rifles do. So what the similar timing proves, I think, is a barrel disturbance or wave that strains the chamber area enough to look like a high pressure. Indeed, you can't strain steel enough to look like a high pressure without some serious stress, though whether that is all due to pressure directly or not, I can't say without more data than we have. Characterizing the strain better looks like it would require putting gauges around the barrel to catch different axes, and several hundred dollars worth of strain gauges up and down the length of the barrel, also on different axes, then a data logger fast enough to capture it all and show the relative timing. And, of course, we'd want to know where it looks like the bullet actually is each step of the way, which multiple gauges would reveal.

The spike does not appear to be a resonance, as the curve decays on the back side, same as a pressure curve. Varmint Al, a former Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories engineer, did a lot of modeling of firearm events on their fancy FEA software that you can see on his site. He concluded:
Vamint Al said:
Maybe the "consensus" was that a rifle barrel vibrated in one or more of the mode shapes when fired. That was because the mode shapes and frequencies were easy to calculate and they did seem to answer some of the questions. From these FEA dynamic pressure calculations, it appears that the recoil and forced deformations are much more important than the natural vibration modes in determining where a barrel is pointing when the bullet exits the muzzle.

So, what are we seeing exactly? I don’t know. My current working theory is that when the powder mass catches up with the bullet, the bullet is upset outward during the attempt at sudden momentum transfer. If that stretches the bore radially even a little it will greatly increase the apparent friction. At that point pressure will abruptly straighten and push forward on the bullet base and bore. There are a couple of kinds of elastic event you can imagine occurring from that. One would be like Al’s Mode 6 on the harmonics page linked to above. Looking at how a long barrel deflects in his rifle animation, you can imagine that something pulling the barrel straight would crack a deflecting muzzle like a whip, which would be the other form. The problem is, I would expect an elastic event like that to ring, and not just stop and be damped out, the way the spike is. Though, of course, the stock bedding may do some of that damping, as might the receiver mass. Still, I’d expect some amount of reflection and ringing.

That’s about as far as I’ve got with it. Expensive measurements appear to be needed to get further in a definitive way.
 
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Thanks for the update Unclenick. All of this is very interesting to me. As for what to do from now on, I'll stick to H335 behind the 40 grain Noslers. I'll use the BL-C(2) for the 64+ grain bullets. With my fancy new barrel, it ought to shoot all my bullet types pretty well, so I'll just go ahead and expect good accuracy.

Sorry about getting everyone all riled up over this. That wasn't my intention.
 
It's a controversial thing because you can tolerate some of it, but not too much.

Just to add to the mess, a number of experimenters have shown spherical propellants have more tendency to cause the spikes than similar burn rate stick powders. It's probably because spherical propellant progressivity depends entirely on deterrents, making it easy for a drop in pressure to slow them down, while stick progressivity is more geometry dependent, and so they have less deterrent to impede a burn once it gets underway. This makes them a bit less sensitive to the rapid expansion and less prone to squibbing out (though I have seen examples of it having happened, so this is a matter of degrees rather than all or nothing).

Personally, for light bullets in .223, I usually use IMR 4198. It seems to have OK indifference to small charge variations, so the fact it doesn't meter as well as a spherical powder doesn't bother me. In Hodgdon's published data its maximum load of 22.2 grains fills the case about 100% under the bullet and gets within 25 fps of the fastest powder loads they publish. That maximum load of 22.2 grains beat 28 grains of H335 and 28.5 grains of BL-C(2) by about 75 and 40 fps, respectively, so it saves you about 25% on powder weight, which should be close to the cost savings.

Note, by the way, that Hodgdon lists that bullet seated to 2.280" COL. That's over the SAAMI max. Alliant uses 2.155" COL. I'm thinking Hodgdon typo'd 2.180", but I'll check with them on that.

One thing I haven't tried with light bullets are the Ramshot spherical powders. They may be less spike prone. BL-C(2) and H335 and H380 and H414/760 and 748 are all older St. Mark's Western Canon (WC) powders. The deterrent coatings on these powders are notoriously more difficult to light than stick powders and are the reason CCI changed their magnum primer formulation in 1989 just for lighting these powders up, and it is why magnum primers, in general, get better results from them. The Ramshot line is newer, however, and their tech told me they use a more modern deterrent chemistry that ignites more reliably so you don't need magnum primers with them. That same easier ignition should also make them less prone to slowing burn or squibbing out, so I'm speculating they may be less prone to making the spikes. But without testing it, I won't know for sure.

Significantly increased performance comes from Alliant's Power Pro 1200-R, which claims to get to get the same Nosler 40 grain BT Hodgdon tested to a fairly astonishing 3800 fps in a 24" tube with a 26.8 grain maximum charge. It is spherical, but they fire it with a Federal 205M primer, not a magnum primer, so this is likely another modern deterrent coating powder. It may, in fact, be the same or about the same as Ramshot Exterminator, which claims to get the same bullet to about 2750 fps with a 27.0 maximum charge. It wouldn't surprise me if the turned out to be the same powder from the same manufacturer, with the performance differences due to the variations in test gear and case and primer choices and conditions.
 
So, by now you should be questioning everything you thought you knew affected where the bullet was when these secondary “pressure” readings occur.

Not me, I am the fan of the running start, I do not want my bullet to hesitate, I give my bullets the 'running start'. When reading time and pressure the person reading the graph/scope should be able to tell 'when it happened' and how much pressure was created.

F. Guffey
 
Unclenick, it appears that we are on the same page in a few areas. One is the stick powder versus the spherical, with the spherical (some of them anyway) being harder to light off. So, since I have a good bit of IMR3031, I'll give it a try as soon as the gunsmith will let me pay the ransom on my 223 and get it back. I'd go get some 4198, assuming that Cabelas still has some on the shelves, but the truth is that I just have too much darn powder now, so I need to shoot up some of what I have before I add to the pile. I'll move the BL-C(2) to the grandson's 308. It won't matter to him.

As for primers, all I use these days are CCI BR primers. Maybe you can tell me if they are anything other than standard strength. I've never bothered to find out, though that's info I should have taken the time to get.

And, something of minor interest perhaps is that when I graduated from college in Chemical Engineering, one of the job offers I looked at was the powder plant in St Marks, Florida. I don't remember who owned it at that time. Didn't matter, since I took a higher paying job in New Orleans, which looked like a fun place to live.
 
Then there is seating the bullet into the lands and the claim seating the bullet into the lands will increase pressure and always following that is the saying a reloader should reduce powder by 'X' % when seating bullets into the lands and then etc..

If there is/was any truth to any of that a graph should show a pressure spike showing time and pressure. Absent in all graphs is a hint of a spike in pressure indicating the bullet hit the lands.

As suggested the last time graphs were posted chamber an 8mm57 Mauser round in a 30/06 chamber. When fired everything looks normal then! the ship hits the sand. the case head will crush/upset, the distance from the top of the cup above the web to the case head will shorten. The flash hole/primer pocket will increase in diameter, then there is that part about catastrophic coming into play. If the case head crushes to the point the case head is no longer supported there will be a separation between the case head and case body.

If someone wants to understand what happens and when I suggest loading the 8mm57 round down to start with.

F. Guffey
 
match the graph to the 'Old saying': The firing pin drives the case, bullet and powder forward to the shoulder of the chamber and then the primers is crushed and fires the round. So I wonder (not really), if the graph shows time and pressure how much time does it take for the firing pin to reach the primer and traveling very slowly, how much time does it take for the case to go from the rear of the chamber to the front of the chamber?

I have said I have fired cases that never made it to the front of the chamber, and I have suggested reloaders should be able to determine if the case formed or stretched. Again, on a graph the graph records events in time and pressure.

F. Guffey
 
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