Second-strikers

If this qualified as cocking the hammer/striker then there's no point in distinguishing between double action and single action since your statement is equally applicable to single action pistols.

Fortunately, it's not difficult to understand or explain the difference between a trigger which performs significant compression of the main spring from one which compresses the main spring an insignificant amount in the process of releasing a hammer/striker.

Believe it or not, that is exactly the definition used by at least one gunmaker in order to call their SA striker pistol a DA. Pretty sure this is the official company line and not just gun pundit confusion which also abounds. It's all about marketing to PDs which demand DA triggers to cover their butts.
 
JohnKSa said:
Fortunately, it's not difficult to understand or explain the difference between a trigger which performs significant compression of the main spring from one which compresses the main spring an insignificant amount in the process of releasing a hammer/striker.

I have great sympathy for the above definition, but exactly how much compression is significant versus insignificant?

When a definition relies on key words that lack clarity and precision, it is difficult to see how the definition could be consistently understood by multiple readers.
 
Believe it or not, that is exactly the definition used by at least one gunmaker in order to call their SA striker pistol a DA.
It's not difficult to understand why a gunmaker might twist a definition to try to achieve a goal they perceive as highly desirable. And the fact that they would do so doesn't make it harder to understand the difference between a trigger that performs incidental and insignificant mainspring compression in the process of releasing a hammer/sear and a trigger that compresses a mainspring to store enough energy to allow the gun to fire.
...exactly how much compression is significant versus insignificant...
Significant and insignificant both have definitions already. There's no need to redefine them nor would there be any motive to do so except to attempt to twist easily understood concepts to suit one's agenda.

sig·nif·i·cant: sufficiently great or important to be worthy of attention; noteworthy.

in·sig·nif·i·cant: too small or unimportant to be worth consideration.

In other words, the difference between a trigger that provides, say, 40% or 50% of the compression of the mainspring and one that provides less than 1% of the total compression is very easy to understand. Trying to define an exact line between the two (e.g. more than 1.119872873879% mainspring compression by length is DA and mainspring compression by that figure or less is SA) wouldn't add anything to anyone's practical understanding, nor would it make any practical difference. In practice the difference is clear in spite of attempts to make it otherwise.
 
Okay, using the definitions provided:
JohnKSa said:
Fortunately, it's not difficult to understand or explain the difference between a trigger which performs sufficiently great or important compression of the main spring to be worthy of attention from one which compresses the main spring too small or unimportant an amount to be worth consideration in the process of releasing a hammer/striker.

That still seems somewhat less than clearly and precisely descriptive.

What seems to be missing is some reference to an end result - whether or not the trigger is storing energy in the firing mechanism necessary to fire a round.

In my view, a DA trigger's two functions are: (1) storing some or all of the energy required by the firing mechanism to fire a round, and; (2) releasing the stored energy in the firing mechanism to fire a round. A SA trigger only has one function - to release previously stored energy required by the firing mechanism to fire a round.
 
Yes, significant/insignificant is mostly subjective till you put a number on it. In this case a percentage. There are other factors in trigger operation but the degree of pre-tension and pull weight must be the most readily quantifiable.

I'd agree that trigger characteristics should be obvious to any experienced user without even knowing the technicalities and barring a mechanical failure, it is incumbent upon that user to handle...or decline to handle...that system in such a way as to result in no undue harm.

The rub is that not all users are experienced and some take their gun handling from whatever the crowd is doing. Others have their gun and gun handling dictated to them via dept. policy. Those who have the freedom to choose their gun and mode of carry also bear the entire responsibility of doing so with reasonable safety.
 
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(1) storing some or all of the energy required by the firing mechanism to fire a round...
This is a rabbit hole with no bottom. Ok, now you need to define how much energy is required by the firing mechanism to actually fire the round. Who does the survey that accurately defines the amount of energy required to fire all of the common primer types on the market? Who catalogs that information for ease of access? What about calibers which can use more than one type of primer? If one primer requires much more energy to fire, that could potentially change the definition of what double action means in a particular firearm depending on what loading is being used.

Does any of that make the definition of double action clearer or more easily understood? Just the reverse, actually.

Then you have to decide if a design which is over-engineered to store, say, 25% more energy than is "required" in order to absolutely insure reliable ignition is still a double action if the trigger does the work of storing 90% of the energy in that safety margin. It's obviously doing a lot of the work of storing energy but since all of the energy it's storing is actually surplus energy, now by this contrived definition of DA, the gun isn't double action.

So who would understand the concept of a DA trigger better after someone were to theoretically hash all that information out? No one.
A SA trigger only has one function - to release previously stored energy required by the firing mechanism to fire a round.
What about the issue brought up by random_guy? He correctly points out that most firearms with a traditional sear require the SA trigger force to cam the hammer back at least some small amount in the process of "releasing" it. This stores energy in the mainspring (albeit a very small amount) but that's still a function other than simply releasing the energy. Using your argument, unless you can define and precisely quantify this amount, no one will understand what an SA trigger is. Of course that's not true at all. We all understand what an SA trigger is even though the trigger action typically does slightly compress the mainspring some small unspecified amount in the process of releasing the hammer.
In this case a percentage.
No, this only obfuscates and complicates what is otherwise a very clear and simple concept. Besides, what percentage would you use? Percentage of energy stored in the mainspring? Percentage of compression by length? Percentage of force applied overall? Percentage of firing pin momentum? Why is one better or more descriptive than the other?

Since the concept is already adequately clear, already very clear without a specifically and precisely defined numerical threshold, the definition of such a threshold provides no value added unless there's some need to meet a predefined legal requirement or contractual specification.
That still seems somewhat less than clearly and precisely descriptive.
It is very clear and very descriptive. The fact that it doesn't provide a numerical threshold doesn't cause any problems in terms being able to attain a clear and practical understanding of when a trigger performs cocking action and when it doesn't.

The bottom line is that it is very easy to understand the concept of a double action trigger vs. a single action trigger. It's even easy to understand that there are variants of what are commonly called 'DAO' triggers and how they work. And all of that understanding in no way requires some artificially defined precise numerical threshold. Trying to be extremely precise by making up some arbitrary threshold provides no value added and actually complicates what is otherwise a pretty straightforward topic.
When a definition relies on key words that lack clarity and precision, it is difficult to see how the definition could be consistently understood by multiple readers.
In some limited circumstances that might be true. In most cases it is not just false, a little thought will reveal it is ludicrous.

Let's take a simple example. I suspect that only 1 person out of 100 could accurately define the wavelength ranges that qualify as red light, as yellow light and as green light. I suspect that the specific thresholds of each wavelength range would vary from one source to another given that the spectrum is continuous. And yet in spite of all that lack of precision and conflicting information, there is no confusion at all when people are taught about how to respond to traffic lights. Can you even imagine anyone in a driver's ed class legitimately asking the teacher what he meant by a red light or demanding accurately defined wavelength thresholds for what constitutes various colors of light and legitimately claiming that without such precise definitions there would be no way to know when to stop, go or be cautious? Of course not.

What about someone claiming that they can't respond to a yellow light properly unless there's a legally defined precise threshold for how much they should slow down or how cautious they should be? It would be ridiculous. People have no problem understanding how to respond to a yellow light even though there's no precisely defined standard of caution to employ.
 
There is no threshold below 100%. (In practice, 98 or 99% due to "sear angle cocking"). Anything less is actually DA at least to some small degree. It's a continuum with no objective threshold. Only a percentage. The number won't tell you everything about the trigger but 60 % vs 90% vs 99% pre-tensioned will tell you a great deal very quickly.

How to measure? I had thought of percentage of ultimate tension or of "full cock" travel. I'm not even sure which numbers are currently used by makers. Or which would be most easily verified.

As noted above, once sear angle cocking comes to be called DA, the term is virtually useless. It could be applied to not only SA handguns but virtually every trigger made. At that point a percentage (or an experienced trigger finger) will differentiate much better than corrupted labels.
 
JohnKSa said:
Does any of that make the definition of double action clearer or more easily understood?

Ambiguity does not lead to clarity, although subjective personal opinion is easier to understand than a rigorous scientific process.

Today, many manufacturers produce a wide variety of hybrid triggers that claim to be double-action. And fanboys ferociously defend the unsubstantiated claims of some while bashing the claims of others, all based on nothing more than perception.

The subject of this thread, re-strike capability, was once the clear, easily understood, and readily observable test of a double-action gun. At least that was the case before manufacturers perverted common understanding and hijacked the desirable "double-action" label for financial advantage. We certainly cannot go back to that simpler approach now because too many people are far too heavily invested in the labeling of their guns.

ADDED:

If it is not apparent, I am NOT an advocate of any approach that tries to shoe-horn pre-cocked hammers or pre-tensioned strikers into definitions of double-action or single-action triggers.

People engage in pretzel logic trying to come up with squishy definitions to allow them to put their favorite gun's trigger mechanism into a traditional category in which it simply does not fit. And when other people point out that those contrived definitions (i.e. "the hammer moves") are not logically consistent (i.e. hammer camming), they huff that that type of (consistent) approach is just silly. And that is really the point - that jury-rigged definitions produce silly results.

Just pick a new name for the hybrid trigger mechanisms (at least JohnKSa made an effort to do so in post #34) and quit trying to count the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin.
 
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There is no threshold below 100%. (In practice, 98 or 99% due to "sear angle cocking").
So other than allowing some small (insignificant? :D ) amount of mainspring compression to deal with the practicalities of sear engagement, any mainspring compression means the trigger can be described as DA, to at least some degree. That seems pretty reasonable to me.
If it is not apparent, I am NOT an advocate of any approach that tries to shoe-horn pre-cocked hammers or pre-tensioned strikers into definitions of double-action or single-action triggers.
That seems reasonable too. However, there aren't official names for all the different trigger variants out there. In the absence of official designations, it makes sense to describe the functionality of the varioius variants using a combination of conventional terms--in fact there's really no other alternative. I agree that pretending every trigger can be simply described as DA, DAO, SA or DA/SA will lead to confusion.
 
So other than allowing some small (insignificant? ) amount of mainspring compression to deal with the practicalities of sear engagement, any mainspring compression means the trigger can be described as DA, to at least some degree.

Yes, and it is at that point that the degree or percentage of pre-tension becomes glaringly important to knowing what type of trigger we are dealing with. Hey, I'm not against labels. We simply need better, more accurate yet concise labels.

60% pre-tensioned DA
90% pre-tensioned DA
98% pre-tensioned DA

Or something other than DA, if it suits. It's really that simple (He says before being bombarded with examples where it's NOT that simple:D).

You must surely see the problem with labeling everything from 0-97+% pre-cocked as simply "Double action". To be fair, we can usually find this percentage with enough digging but it should be one of the most central descriptors of the trigger.
 
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... it is at that point that the degree or percentage of pre-tension becomes glaringly important to knowing what type of trigger we are dealing with.
60% pre-tensioned DA
90% pre-tensioned DA
98% pre-tensioned DA
I can see the benefit of knowing whether we're dealing with trigger that performs significant cocking action or whether the only cocking action performed by the trigger is the insignificant amount that occurs amounts to camming the striker/hammer back in the process of releasing it. I can't see any benefit of knowing the precise pre-tensioning amount in the general case.

Here are the only two things that might be worth knowing, and 2 is a stretch.

1. Does the trigger perform any significant cocking action? (i.e. Can it reasonably be classified as some variant of a double action trigger?)
2. Does the pre-tensioning/presetting store enough energy to fire the gun? Given that passive safeties make this largely a moot point, the value of knowing this is questionable. You certainly don't need to know this to properly classify the trigger action type.

Past that it's just knowing numbers for the sake of knowing numbers.
You must surely see the problem with labeling everything from 0-97+% pre-cocked as simply "Double action".
I don't see how anything I've said could be construed as supporting the idea of labelling a wide range of DA variant triggers as "simply 'Double action'".

What I have been saying is that knowing the precise level of pre-tensioning doesn't change the variant. You can easily distinguish between the various types of "DAO" actions without knowing the specific number that equates to the pre-tensioning or trigger cocking action. (I put "DAO" in quotes for a reason--because not all guns called "DAO" are really Double Action.)
 
Yeah, numbers are overrated for the purpose of objectively defining properties. :D

I'm thinking of relabeling all my ammo cans as either "Big" or "Small". I think we all know the difference. :p


What I have been saying is that knowing the precise level of pre-tensioning doesn't change the variant. You can easily distinguish between the various types of "DAO" actions without knowing the specific number that equates to the pre-tensioning or trigger cocking action.

I doubt there is any more concise way to sort out the highly varied approaches to "DA" than to know that one objective measurement. JMO and I'll stop belaboring the issue now.
 
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Yeah, numbers are overrated for the purpose of objectively defining properties.
Numbers are very useful, but in this case precise numbers are simply not necessary.

Let's say we have a gun with a trigger that performs a significant portion the cocking action (by mainspring compression length) while another significant part of the cocking action is pre-tensioning performed by slide action. Clearly it's easy to categorize the trigger type and provide a clear and accurate description of how it works even though the information provided does not include the precise amount of mainspring compression performed by the trigger.

Ok, let's take another gun where the trigger performs only incidental compression of the mainspring in the process of camming back the hammer to release it. Again, even without knowing the precise amount of mainspring compression performed by the trigger, it's child's play to accurately categorize it and clearly describe it.

Can you provide an example of a trigger type where it is necessary to know the precise amount of cocking action that the trigger performs in order to accurately classify the trigger as DA, SA or as some double-action variant and then describe how it works?
 
JohnKSa said:
Let's say we have a gun with a trigger that performs a significant portion the cocking action (by mainspring compression length) while another significant part of the cocking action is pre-tensioning performed by slide action.

What are "significant" and "incidental" amounts of mainspring compression length? Are they totally subjective, or is there some empirical basis on which they stand?

Mainspring compression that is inadequate to ignite a primer would seem fairly meaningless. So how much would a mainspring have to be compressed before it would be capable of igniting a primer? <25%? 25%-50%? 50%-75%? >75%?
 
Let's say we have a gun with a trigger that performs a significant portion the cocking action (by mainspring compression length) while another significant part of the cocking action is pre-tensioning performed by slide action. Clearly it's easy to categorize the trigger type and provide a clear and accurate description of how it works even though the information provided does not include the precise amount of mainspring compression performed by the trigger.

Ok, let's take another gun where the trigger performs only incidental compression of the mainspring in the process of camming back the hammer to release it. Again, even without knowing the precise amount of mainspring compression performed by the trigger, it's child's play to accurately categorize it and clearly describe it.

Yes. at the extremes it is easy enough to categorize a trigger, although plenty of people still screw that up. As I said though, this is a continuum with potentially every shade in between. At what point does insignificant become significant? I'd prefer to simply be given the daggone number and spared somebody else's subjective opinion.

Have you noticed that you are the one drawing a threshold between DA and SA, albeit a vague one? I feel it is really better to think in terms of a continuum.

This is for the sake of discussing systems which are not sitting in our hands. The ultimate truth can only be known by pulling the trigger yourself but when that is not feasible, a few key numbers mixed with a minimum of subjective description can tell us an enormous amount about a trigger we've never laid hands on.

Admittedly, a lot of people don't care much about the details. They may hold that training makes any trigger both safe and shootable. I'd contend that some are better than others in both respects and you may as well be informed when weighing one against another.
 
I feel it is really better to think in terms of a continuum.

If that is a helpful concept for you, fine, but I wouldn't expect to see other people adopting the concept, because the difference between SA and DA, or between insignificant and significant loading of a striker or hammer, is not nebulous for most. Sitting here at a desk, I honestly can't think of a pistol that stands as an example of an indistinct area.

As for the numbers, I care far more about a pull weight than a percentage of loading. If I read that, a DA vs SA designation, and a length of pull, I have a pretty good idea what the trigger is going to feel like in my hand. I might even submit that if I know the length and weight of a trigger I will have a pretty darn good idea of whether it is SA or DA.
 
TailGator said:
I might even submit that if I know the length and weight of a trigger I will have a pretty darn good idea of whether it is SA or DA.

Length and weight might not be a great indicator of whether a trigger is SA or DA. Apex Tactical advertises a kit for the M&P as reducing trigger travel by 50% and weight by 25%-40%.
 
If that is a helpful concept for you, fine...

Well, it's not really a concept, just a literal statement of fact. Any pistol which is pre-tensioned from 0% to 99% (or slightly less in practical use) would be a DA pistol. That is a continuum all under the umbrella term "DA". We can compare just "how much DA" a given trigger is by its percentage of pre-tensioning.

"SA" would seem to be a more absolute term but could logically apply to a "DA" which is 90% or more pre-tensioned. I've read that SIG's strikers are about 90%. IDK, all I've shot are their hammer guns.

As we've said, other trigger specs and impressions can be added to give an even better picture of its practical feel. I believe a very good start to understanding a given striker trigger is pre-tension though. That alone will tell you in many cases that the trigger is SA. If 60% or less, it is a safe bet that it will behave more like a TDA trigger.

To those who see no need to know striker pre-tension:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8_FOQ7-P30
 
What are "significant" and "incidental" amounts of mainspring compression length?
Look at the examples I gave and explain how not knowing the precise mainspring compression amounts prevents you from properly understanding if the trigger is DA or some variant of DA or not. You're also welcome to answer the challenge by providing an example of a trigger where one must know the precise amount of trigger-generated mainspring compression in order to categorize the trigger type and explain its function.
As I said though, this is a continuum with potentially every shade in between.
This doesn't help your argument. What this means is that even if you know for certain the precise amount of mainspring compression performed by the trigger, it doesn't help you categorize the pistol because there are no officially defined boundaries in the continuum to compare that precise number against. So now you have your precise number and you still don't have an official categorization. You're going to have to make up your own unofficial threshold which is not only a far cry from being precise, it also doesn't settle anything.
I'd prefer to simply be given the daggone number and spared somebody else's subjective opinion.
This doesn't help your argument either. If all you care about is understanding how the trigger works, you don't need to have a precise number as my examples show. If you want to others to agree with you, it's going to take a lot more than just a precise number. You're going to have to find some organization with clout and get them to provide official thresholds so that the precise numbers can be used to officially categorize trigger function.
Have you noticed that you are the one drawing a threshold between DA and SA, albeit a vague one?
Of course there's a threshold and it's not at all vague. The threshold has been clear ever since DA came into being and in all that time it's never needed a precisely defined number to clarify it.
I'd contend that some are better than others in both respects and you may as well be informed when weighing one against another.
Better is a very vague term for you to use given the context of the discussion ;) , but that aside, they certainly are different, and I definitely understand why some people might prefer one over the other.

I'm all for knowing the gist of how a trigger works--i.e. is it really double action (trigger performs significant cocking action) or is it actually single action? But as my examples show, you don't have to know a precise number to understand which is which.
Apex Tactical advertises a kit for the M&P as reducing trigger travel by 50% and weight by 25%-40%.
It is very important to understand that some trigger kits FUNDAMENTALLY change the operation of the trigger and can not only disable passive safeties which depend on trigger travel for proper operation, but can even effectively transform a DA hybrid variant into what is, for all practical purposes, a single-action design. I'm not saying the Apex trigger kit fits that description, but I am saying one should keep in mind that you don't get something for nothing when physics are involved. Keeping the basic function of all safeties and trigger function the same while reducing both pull weight AND pull length significantly is not at all simple to do. If it all seems too good to be true, one should be very skeptical.
To those who see no need to know striker pre-tension:
That's a strawman. I've not said there's no need to know striker pretension. I said that there's no benefit in knowing it precisely. And while you've made it clear that you think differently, I note that you failed to take me up on my very simple challenge.

Can you provide an example of a trigger type where it is necessary to know the precise amount of cocking action that the trigger performs in order to accurately classify the trigger as DA, SA or as some double-action variant and then describe how it works?
 
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