Seat Belts and Individual Freedom

Rich, Marko brought up privitization.

And I listed another reason seat belts affect more lives than just the driver. Or are you reading the abridged version of this thread.


I still don't understand your fascination with governers. Excessive speed does kill, so we have speed limits and penalties - exactly like the law we're discussing. Hold the course, Rich.


Finally, demonstrate an absolute right under US law. Show me how crazy I am.
 
Hey, I know what the next Senator will use as a filibuster: This rediculous thread on seat belts. Should last through the next Congressional elections. Come on. Neither camp will concede on this one. As a past friend once said, "Dude, turn the page." Shall we?
 
Rich, Marko brought up privitization.
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I know. As I said, he brought it up in passing. You've latched onto it like a drowning man to a seagull. But you asked me to show how you change direction....that's how. ;)

Or are you reading the abridged version of this thread.
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I tend to avoid only the parts that include bleating. I may have missed your second reason inadvertently while skimming someone's bleating....not necessarily yours. Is the second reason worth repeating?

I still don't understand your fascination with governers. Excessive speed does kill, so we have speed limits and penalties - exactly like the law we're discussing.
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And I simply don't understand your fascination with laws for laws sake, absent any quantification of their value. You argue that you need to save me from myself; but then argue that it's not that important; that you're unwilling to do something REAL toward that end. You'd much rather pass a law which controls "me" not at all; just all my neighbors who never needed the law in the first place. Confused? I know I am.



Finally, demonstrate an absolute right under US law. Show me how crazy I am.
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Oh, that's easy. While it's not contained in the Constitution it's the clause that gave birth and authority to that document. And, should you argue that it is not "Law", then you only buttress Brother Marko's point that you do not understand the difference between "legal" and "moral":
Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government
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Rich
 
You argue that you need to save me from myself; but then argue that it's not that important; that you're unwilling to do something REAL toward that end. You'd much rather pass a law which controls "me" not at all; just all my neighbors who never needed the law in the first place.
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I argued nothing of the kind.

I do agree with you, though. You're confused.


And I already made my other point, twice. While you may enjoy treating me as an idiot, I'm not going to live up to your expectations by repeating myself, again.
 
Handy-
I wish you would get over this persecution complex. I REALLY do. Nobody is treating you like an idiot. OTOH, if you feel that you are (treated that way, that is ;)), it sounds like a personal problem and we can't help with your personal problems.

If you are not arguing that Seat Belt Laws are in place to protect me from myself, who on earth ARE they protecting from my debauchery? Statistics and source on the numbers of 3rd parties killed because a driver failed to Buckle Up for [Handy's] Safety are in order.....in fact, stats are required; just as I provided them on my part.
Rich
 
Rich,

I imagine the stats of exactly how many times a seat belt helps a driver retain control of a vehicle could be found in the same place as the number of times the presentation of a gun prevented a crime.

If you would be good enough to post the link that documents the second one, I'm sure I'll be able to supply the first.


I never expected you to walk into that one....that's the truth.



In the meantime, since you're big on making sure everyone's posts are answered, you could comment on your vision of the completely deregulated road system, and how it would (mal)function.
 
Rich
It's what i call living
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No, it's called common sense.

Seat belt use save lives.

No matter how you or anyone else wants to spin it, thru legalize jargon or statistics compiled by whatever authority.

Seat belt usage & enforcement is a public safety measure pure and simple.

Governmental intervention in our private lives is inherently inevitable, some laws and regulations how much each individual is willing to put up with and the price is willing to pay for said "freedoms".

Seat belts laws are an intrusion by the government I'm willing to abide by.

12-34hom.
 
Don't spin this, 12-34hom. NOBODY has claimed that seat belts are a waste of time. (Though some DEAD women and children might argue that point when it comes to Son-O-Seatbelts.....Airbags in the first 10 years.)

Seat belts laws are an intrusion by the government I'm willing to abide by.
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Virtually everyone who wears them now would "abide" by them WITHOUT government intrusion.

But tell me this....given your values, do you not agree with firearms registration? If not, why not?
Rich
 
What's wrong with firearms registration?
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Nothing at all....except that it proves our point about the end game of the Nanny Statists. If you wish to latch onto this as more than a quick side issue for illustrative purposes, kindly start a new thread.
Rich
 
What's wrong with firearms registration?
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In short, it sucks up tax dollars and resources, and it never works as intended.

You may want to rephrase the question and ask, "What's good about firearms registration?"

It's a sad day for the descendants of Jefferson when the burden of proof on the utility of a law is shifted to the ones opposing it instead of those proposing it.

But that's for another thread.
 
Charlie-
Fair enough. Non-articulated value judgment. That's your right.

We'll go back to Seat Belt Criminals now. I'll assume your reasoning there is the same and I'll pray that you not provide mental images of hosing body parts out of cars so that I can avoid providing mental images of the acts of regimes that have dumbed people down so far that they no longer trust their own individual choices.

Fair enough? We've already granted you the "Seat Belts Save Lives" argument.
Rich
 
Rabbi, I'm certain that you weren't deliberately trying to be rude, but you ignored my question. I'll repeat it. Could you explain why allowing people to suffer the logical consequences of their own actions isn't promoting the general welfare?

It seems fairly obvious to me that by allowing people the human dignity of suffering the consequences of their own imprudence or the rewards of their own forsight we promote the general welfare but I'm eager to read your reply.
 
In all of this thread no one has answered this question satisfactorily:

If we eliminate seat belt laws (which I think we should eliminate, but yes I always buckle up), how do we not end up being our brothers keeper by paying his medical bills?

I have no problems with people tearing their own bodies to shreds, but I do not want to pay for the consequences of their stupidity.

As a side comment, I also think it should be up to the parents to determine whether their children should be buckled in as well. Parents may be losing rights faster than any other group.
 
Butch-
I answered this on page 1 from National Safety Council stats:
Seatbelt Non compliance costs individuals, insurers and The State approximately $48.18 for every man, woman and child per year. http://www.nsc.org/partners/costs.htm


So what portion is paid by insurers or out of pocket? Call the real cost to you twenty bucks a year. Sound like a "general welfare" issue that requires a law, Safety Stops, Fines and infringements?
Rich
 
Rich:

One penny is too much for me to spend on someone else's stupidity. It takes all the money I have to pay for my own stupidity.

Insurers and the State do not pay for anything. They collect from us and pass it on.
 
Rich:

I want a whole lotsa less laws. I want the seatbelt laws to go away. I also want us to create a system whereby people are responsible for their own costs. I am not suggesting we keep the seatbelt laws because they cost us less, I am saying that we need to quit paying for the stupidity of others.

I have an inalienable right to be stupid, but I do not have an inalienable right to be stupid AND to rely upon others to bail me out.
 
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