SD vs Combat

Edward429451 said:
...The best defense is a good offense.
Unless of course the jury finds that your "offense" was not in justified response to an immediate threat. Now you were the aggressor, and you will be the one going to jail.

Some folks prefer to think of themselves "in combat." Gosh, that sounds so much more manly and edgy.

But the differences in rules of engagement and objective are critical legally and need to be understood and respected.
 
Well icedog88, that would not be my reasoning at all. That would be more in line with the reasoning that combat is offensive whereas self defense is defensive which is a perspective that I was questioning.

No, that's not exactly my meaning. I am referring to a distinction between the killing that takes place in war and the application of deadly force in self defense. In SD the goal is never to kill, the goal is to use the minimal force necessary to stop the threat.

That is a perspective on self defense that we have as a pro-gun group of people who are trying hard to not lose guns to the alarmist liberals, but outside our context, the context of self defense isn't always to just stop the threat.

Drone strikes, JDAM's and sniper shots among other tools of war are intended not just to stop aggressive behavior but to kill.

Tools of war? You mean like firearms? I think you are confusing design and application. Take sniper shots. The design of the sniper program is to develop highly skiled shooters who can deliver a projectile on target at range, often in a clandestine manner (amongst all sorts of other duties outside of shooting). Often is the case that the role of the sniper shot is not to kill, but to stop, inclusive of targets to be stopped including vehicles, aircraft, rockets, as well as people and groups of people.

JDAMs are designed to kill? Not hardly. The JDAM system was develop for the purpose of being able to make aerial dropped munitions more accurate. That application can be put to use in killing or put to use in making roads, runways, bridges, etc. impassable. The same with drone strikes.

But I think I understood the OP's intention was to use the term "Combat" to refer to war.

Really? I didn't get that at all. In fact, I thought it was rather ambiguous and so I questioned it. Of course, Nate has not opted to participate further in the thread he started.

But the differences in rules of engagement and objective are critical legally and need to be understood and respected.
Absolutely, and those rules are apt to be very different in how they are perceived or applied depending upon where you are in the world, time period, societal norms, etc.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
Absolutely, and those rules are apt to be very different in how they are perceived or applied depending upon where you are in the world, time period, societal norms, etc.
On the other hand, we're here, and this is now.
 
I do agree with Archer 9505 that this has become more semantic than the spirit of the thread. I took it to mean civilian vs militarily in war.


Well icedog88, that would not be my reasoning at all. That would be more in line with the reasoning that combat is offensive whereas self defense is defensive which is a perspective that I was questioning.

Well, based on the loose definition that you gave

referring to conflict (physical fighting) between opposing forces where conflict can be in the form of direct contact fighting

or cannot respond to the attackers.

Seems like every spanking I ever saw.:D


Without specific definition, the use of the term "combat" in military texts seems quite broad in what it covers.

It is. But inferring what I thought to be the spirit of the thread, I and others were giving a perceived mindset as opposed to definition. I didn't think nate45 was looking for definitions.
 
I'm having flashbacks of "no its not an assualt weapon, it's an AR15." :rolleyes:


Drone strikes, JDAM's and sniper shots among other tools of war are intended not just to stop aggressive behavior but to kill.

They certainly aren't designed for hitting random people for doing nothing now, are they? There's a reason why both sides in war are called 'aggressors.' And just to split the hair a bit more, don't you carry your weapon to kill? IE. Stop the aggresive behavior with a bullet? If you are carrying it to wound or flash around then there needs to be some reevaluation.

Anyway, back on topic with combat vs. self defense. The two things they have in common is situational awareness and the old saying of 'situation dictates.' Caught in the open? Find cover. Overwhelmed? Retreat. Caught offguard? Reread the first of the two I listed.

The last thing is having a mindset to win no matter what. So no, you don't have air cover, and you don't have forces on reserve (unless you want to consider LE for that), but you do need the same mindset. Not neccesarily the same rules, but certainly the will to survive. For anyone who thinks there hands are above 'less than lethal,' I dont understand how that wouldnt be ok and carrying a weapon would be:confused: Too extreme? Short of handcuffing the guy and bringing him back to your basement for tortue, I don't think theres much that a 'highly trained' person can be accused with. Unless of course you're an Army Ranger named Nicholas Cage who is attacked by guys outside of a bar :eek:
 
So in the Second Gulf War conflict in Iraq where the Coalition Forces (mostly US and GB originally) were on the offensive, the coalition forces were engaged in combat but Iraq was engaged in self defense? It isn't combat if you are not on the offensive?

didn't ya hear? The loyal republican guard forces routed US forces in a major counterattack. The explosions heard at the Baghdad Airport was celebratory fire.

This is a whacky thread. I am going to go out on a limb and say that combat is armed conflict that opposing organized units engage in to achieve some kind of political or economic goal for themselves or others. I could trot out the Tennessee chart for a more detailed explanation but that would take too long. The OP can feel free to correct any misconception I have.

I think an analogy is on order. Self defense is jogging around the neighborhood (maybe with your wife or buddy) dealing with the occasional aggressive barking dog and combat is playing professional football with ten of your closest friends against the dirtiest rivals you have ever played against, who will do anything to win.

From a legal aspect there are scant comparisons.

I can't drop a bomb on the guy who ripped off my car radio or send a hit team to sweep up the dudes who slapped my neighbors around and robbed them. But I might in combat. I certainly can't shoot a fleeing attacker in the back in a SD role whereas it might be highly advisable to do that in combat. If I (truly) accidentally kill the family next door to where the bad guys were holed up that I was trying to kill I most likely will never see the inside of a court room and the military will pay a condolence payment... maybe. In a SD setting they will put me under the jail and take away everything I have. There are dozens of other examples and I see no need to go through every legal situation.

Combat is a team sport.

While often times I was in a very small unit I was never once completely alone without any help. In SD you very likely will be alone as an attacker is looking for an easy target. I almost certainly won't have guys I have trained with for weeks/ months/ years, whose capabilities and shortcomings I understand well, whom I can communicate with easily and who understand what I am doing and I understand what they are doing around to help me. In SD if someone else is there and ready and able to help it is more a case of chance and circumstance and blind luck.

A true self defense situation means that most likely you can not pick the time, place and circumstances of the confrontation. A major point in combat is to either maintain or gain the initiative and bring as many of those factors on your side as possible before you make contact. Planning and detailed planning indicate something other than a SD type situation.

The goals are often times different. In combat there is little question that your attacker is trying to kill you to eliminate you from the face of the earth for whatever reason. In a SD role the goal could be rape, robbery, mischief or some other form of mayhem. The ambiguous nature and the uncertainty of intentions in SD often makes for a confused response.

I am just scratching the surface here. Read my analogy again. It is as close as I can come to making one well understood.

JDAMs are designed to kill? Not hardly.

LOL. I guess he should have said the 500 pound bomb attached to it. It is for whatever purpose put to it.
 
I can side with the OP on this one...What it comes down to is mindset,,,the same mindset you get in the Military and Martial Arts,,,the same adrenalin rush like a high voltage electrical current running through your body...

In the Military we are trained to be aggressive, we are trained to kill, and we go looking for trouble on the offensive and the defensive and it is hard to change that mindset to the civilian mindset of self defense when you come back home.

I have carried a gun for fourty years since Viet Nam,,,but my mindset has completely changed,,, now instead of looking for trouble I completely avoid it even to the point of possibly appearing cowardly,,,certainly not the same mindset I had or could have gotten away with in the military.

Actually I have never been in a civilian gunfight but how can I say this, the longest firefight I was in lasted four hours and sometimes with all your buddies and fire support and everything that is going on in a firefight it is terrifying but at times it can be rather impersonal, like they are trying to kill everyone not just me.

In a civilian firefight it will probably be just you and another man trying to kill each other, he on the offensive and you in self defense and it will be extremely personal as you know either you or he or both of you will probably die from the encounter,,, and you have to immediately switch from the civilian mindset of complete avoidance to the military mindset of kill or be killed.

Combat is Combat whether Military or Civilian when the lead starts to fly and Death is just a Heartbeat away.
 
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too many training sources

I was trained by the Army, by martial arts instructors and by a law enforcement academy. On the LEO job, I had to quickly separate the the things I learned from the different sources to keep from doing something illegal. For example, the Army showed me how to break a man's neck. Martial arts showed me how to break bones and kill people if necessary. Law enforcement, of course, requires the ability to escalate and de-escalate all the way from officer presence to lethal force. As a private citizen, I am also required to not remain at too high a level of force for the situation. The appropriate level of force changes often and changes quickly over the course of an incident. We are required to keep up with the changes, and that is not always easily done. Too little force can get us killed, and too much force can put us in the cage.
 
Clearly not everyone engaged in combat is on the offensive and not all military forces in the field are there to go into combat. Their mission may involve avoid combat if possible. But none of that has any bearing on the original situation.

I don't know what the answer is but Jeff Cooper in his little red book clearly comes down on the side of combat. In other words, anything less than a violent response to a threat was a half-measure. But that wasn't saying to always get involved. He was on record as saying he wouldn't go anywhere where he had to carry a concealed weapon.
 
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IMO Self Defense in the Civilian world is different from Combat in the Military.

SD with a civilian is usually a last resort, as you would first try to avoid a confrontation. In SD you don't go busting into a house to engage badguys; instead you actually avoid it unless there is no alternative (you are trapped or trying to save a loved one).

With military combat, if you are trying to gain ground or territory i.e. the enemy encampment or whatever and there are armed guards patrolling or in the front gate, you can engage them from a longway without necessarily being in real danger. just my thought process, correct me if i'm wrong.

otherwise combat in the civilian (non-military) world is mostly done by LEO's. A plain civilian would not go around looking for rapists or thieves.
 
If you are in a fight you are in combat.

Definitions of 'combat' [v., kuhm-bat, kom-bat; n.,kom-bat]
Dictionary.com - (Showing 1 definitions)
(used with or without object)
1. to fight (against)
(noun)
1. battle


It is all semantics. If I am getting mugged or carjacked the situation is the same, in that, the BG is using or threatening to use violence against me or my family. The ONLY response is overwhelming violence of action. Any fight you get into on the street is a fight for your life and must be handle accordingly or you risk losing. If you cannot avoid, retreat, or de-escalate the situation and it comes to violence then it is game on. I will give no quarter, until such time as the fight is over. When you ask is the fight over? I win, he (they) win(s).
 
It is all semantics.

Not really. Engaging in combat on behalf of an governmental entity may provide you with legal protections that you do not enjoy as a private citizen. There may also be rules that govern behavior, that if you break would subject you to a penalty.
 
I view it as simply organized combat vs personal combat. You had better get the upper hand ASAP and destroy your opponent or drive him off the field. The ROE are different in the personal variety because after the rout, you can't run him down and kill him.
 
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