SD Speed & Accuracy: How Am I doing?
- Thread starter gvf
- Start date
Someone said that speed is overrated??? In reality the speed with which you put lead into your target translates into safety for yourself. Learning to be fast, consistent, and combat accurate is a definite bonus and should never be considered overrated.
For me I try to shoot as fast as I can consistently hit the 6 inch spread mark in center mass. If my groups are to tight I speed up or to big I slow down.
For the draw from holster just start slow making sure to get a proper grip. Practice and the speed and CONSISTENCY will come in time. From concealment it is harder but the key here is to use situational awareness to give yourself advance warning so that you can access the gun instantly. I use a fanny pack and can gain access real fast when surprised but that second or so will feel like an hour while behind in the reactionary curve. If I have done my job with awareness I can discretely access my gun and be ready to deploy it instantly.
Speed is a valuable commodity in a gunfight no matter what some folks might suggest.
For me I try to shoot as fast as I can consistently hit the 6 inch spread mark in center mass. If my groups are to tight I speed up or to big I slow down.
For the draw from holster just start slow making sure to get a proper grip. Practice and the speed and CONSISTENCY will come in time. From concealment it is harder but the key here is to use situational awareness to give yourself advance warning so that you can access the gun instantly. I use a fanny pack and can gain access real fast when surprised but that second or so will feel like an hour while behind in the reactionary curve. If I have done my job with awareness I can discretely access my gun and be ready to deploy it instantly.
Speed is a valuable commodity in a gunfight no matter what some folks might suggest.
David Armstrong
Moderator
So dod I, whihc is why I suggest that the timing is off somewhere. A sub-second draw from an open competition rig is fairly rare, doing it from concealement is almost unheard of.
A trick from long ago is to put your thumb on the top of the hammer as you execute the draw. This keeps it from hanging up as you draw it.
No Distinction?
I beg to differ, in real gun fights sights are rarely used. Point shooting which is shooting without using the sights at close range is essential to defending yourself. There's an interesting article in the August Guns and Ammo about this very subject. When you draw your gun under the extremely high stress conditions of possibly being in a fight for your life you will react quickly. Many officers interviewed on this subject said they felt they didn't have time to aim. It goes on to say they did have the time in reality but didn't think they did. Under extreme stress we lose simple coordination and motor skills. The article says that 80% of police involved shootings happen inside 5 feet but that on average police miss with 85% of their rounds. Make up your own mind what type of defensive shooting you want to learn. There's an old book by Capts Fairbairn and Sykes that says that the pistol is used for primarily 2 things, sport or pleasure or combat. They say that while they are similar they were as different as chalk and cheese.
I beg to differ, in real gun fights sights are rarely used. Point shooting which is shooting without using the sights at close range is essential to defending yourself. There's an interesting article in the August Guns and Ammo about this very subject. When you draw your gun under the extremely high stress conditions of possibly being in a fight for your life you will react quickly. Many officers interviewed on this subject said they felt they didn't have time to aim. It goes on to say they did have the time in reality but didn't think they did. Under extreme stress we lose simple coordination and motor skills. The article says that 80% of police involved shootings happen inside 5 feet but that on average police miss with 85% of their rounds. Make up your own mind what type of defensive shooting you want to learn. There's an old book by Capts Fairbairn and Sykes that says that the pistol is used for primarily 2 things, sport or pleasure or combat. They say that while they are similar they were as different as chalk and cheese.
Care to cite the sources that support that? Many people can use the sights just as quickly as not. Cooper cites a FBI study showing that 80% of the agents interviewed remember using their sights during the gunfight. Of those, most hit with the first shot. The Force Science Institute recently published a similar study that showed the hit ratio for leo's is really closer to 60%. Also, just because someone doesn't remember seeing their sights or not is not proof of using or not using them. It is only proof of not remembering.
mikejonestkd
New member
A bit of a tangent to the thread but...
Not remembering if you used your sights is not relevant.
As an example: few shotgunners recall the front bead as they focus on an incoming bird. They only recall the bird and their body reacts as it has been trained. Just because they don't remember the front bead sight as they track the bird does not mean that they are not using it...
just my 2 cents.
Not remembering if you used your sights is not relevant.
As an example: few shotgunners recall the front bead as they focus on an incoming bird. They only recall the bird and their body reacts as it has been trained. Just because they don't remember the front bead sight as they track the bird does not mean that they are not using it...
just my 2 cents.
"No Distinction?"
None. The topic of the thread is about increasing speed and accuracy. The forula for that is the same whether using sighted fire techniques or point shooting techniques. I use both and have had great success teaching others. They start of slow, become comfortable, work on technique, begin to speed up... See above for the cycle.
None. The topic of the thread is about increasing speed and accuracy. The forula for that is the same whether using sighted fire techniques or point shooting techniques. I use both and have had great success teaching others. They start of slow, become comfortable, work on technique, begin to speed up... See above for the cycle.
David Armstrong
Moderator
Every SOP 9 has shown that, and with a database of several thousand shootings that is pretty indicative.
That is because they (FSI) figure hit ratios using a different formula than most have used over the years. That is a big problem in figuring this kind of stuff, the terminology is not standardized.
And yet that same memory is considered valid for so many other things. Strange that we accept a concept in so many areas, but then reject that same concept in the only area where we disagee with the result.
Why ,"yes" I am comfortable as it turns out. For now. But I'm blessed with the incentive and abilty to train more than most folks.
Standing, in a chair, from a car, moving, imposing "injuries" for training's sake, whatever... the cycle for improving speed and accuracy is remains the same; and it involves comfort. That stage of comfort is relative to one of uncomfort, by the way. hence my use fo the term "cycle."
Standing, in a chair, from a car, moving, imposing "injuries" for training's sake, whatever... the cycle for improving speed and accuracy is remains the same; and it involves comfort. That stage of comfort is relative to one of uncomfort, by the way. hence my use fo the term "cycle."
David Armstrong
Moderator
Few on the Brian Enos forum will do a sub- 1 second draw from concealement using typical gear and situations. Yes, a sub-1 is not that hard in the open, when you are ready, you have your special holster, and so on. Doing it in a practical realistic sense is quite different.
I know that in a realistic setting a one second draw is a whole lot harder than from competition concealment. My gun is covered but shows clearly.
The top shooters can draw from a competition holster in .4 seconds, when I set my timer to the most sensitive setting, it records it's own beep at .2 seconds. This fascinated me so much, that I tried to get close to that time.
After all the years, I never got really close to .4 seconds but I have at least tried. I decreased my time considerably and one of the easiest ways to improve time, is to cut reaction time to the beep of the timer.
Of course, this is for the gamesman, but which parameter should be used otherwise?
The top shooters can draw from a competition holster in .4 seconds, when I set my timer to the most sensitive setting, it records it's own beep at .2 seconds. This fascinated me so much, that I tried to get close to that time.
After all the years, I never got really close to .4 seconds but I have at least tried. I decreased my time considerably and one of the easiest ways to improve time, is to cut reaction time to the beep of the timer.
Of course, this is for the gamesman, but which parameter should be used otherwise?
And don't forget, those times begin after the first OODA loop cycle.
How long is that for most people under ideal circumstances? (The range)
Under typical ones? (Every day)
Under poor ones? (Every day with something thrown in)
The time line just grows longer no matter what the skill level.
LOTS of things cut into time, which is why working on your speed and accuracy, once you've OODA'd, is so important.
How long is that for most people under ideal circumstances? (The range)
Under typical ones? (Every day)
Under poor ones? (Every day with something thrown in)
The time line just grows longer no matter what the skill level.
LOTS of things cut into time, which is why working on your speed and accuracy, once you've OODA'd, is so important.
Good stats, especially for someone who hasnt had excessive practice. While rapid-fire accuracy is of great importance in a "Bad Day" scenario, dont forget that when the sheet goes south, you most likely will NOT be on your A-Game.
You might freeze. You might hesitate. You might just not react in the way you've told yourself you will react. You have to mentally prepare yourself for a hostile encounter both against you, or someone else, and it doesnt hurt to have buddies help you with that.
You can use various dry-firing exercises with friends to help drill for a combat encounter, or attend a class of some kind which specialize in these types of scenarios. Accuracy is paramount, but equally (I would say) as preparedness, and general "coolness" during conflict. They drill that into you in the Army, and also in law enforcement (although I only have a bit of experience in the former
)
Lastly, remember that Murphy's law applies to civilians. Something WILL happen in a scenario that you havent covered, or isnt right, or is Code-SNAFU. There really isnt anything you can do about that except be aware of your surroundings, threats, targets (friendly, hostile, and bystander), and be mentally prepared to do what needs to be done.
Good luck with your heat, and lets hope the bad guys dont win.
You might freeze. You might hesitate. You might just not react in the way you've told yourself you will react. You have to mentally prepare yourself for a hostile encounter both against you, or someone else, and it doesnt hurt to have buddies help you with that.
You can use various dry-firing exercises with friends to help drill for a combat encounter, or attend a class of some kind which specialize in these types of scenarios. Accuracy is paramount, but equally (I would say) as preparedness, and general "coolness" during conflict. They drill that into you in the Army, and also in law enforcement (although I only have a bit of experience in the former
)Lastly, remember that Murphy's law applies to civilians. Something WILL happen in a scenario that you havent covered, or isnt right, or is Code-SNAFU. There really isnt anything you can do about that except be aware of your surroundings, threats, targets (friendly, hostile, and bystander), and be mentally prepared to do what needs to be done.
Good luck with your heat, and lets hope the bad guys dont win.
To achieve a good speed for the draw and rapid fire, I cannot emphasize the use of a videocamera enough!
Watch it in slow motion and you'll find out how far you are away from the economy of movement and even small mistakes show.
If you are getting sub second draws and you add .5 seconds startling time it is still better than 2 seconds plus .5 seconds startling time - but the confidence you gain from it, will help you in the worst of scenarios.
Watch it in slow motion and you'll find out how far you are away from the economy of movement and even small mistakes show.
If you are getting sub second draws and you add .5 seconds startling time it is still better than 2 seconds plus .5 seconds startling time - but the confidence you gain from it, will help you in the worst of scenarios.
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What this fellow says:
Speed and Precision (By Rob Pincus)
All shooting is a balance between speed and precision.
Sometimes you need to be more precise, sometimes you need to be faster. Using this concept, most defensive shooting can be described in the following way: You need to get the hit that you need to get as quickly as you can get it. This statement can be summed up in one word: Efficiency. Efficiency includes effectiveness.
In the Combat Focus ™ shooting program, we explain it this way:
• The target dictates the hit you need to get.
• Ultimately, your ability determines whether or not you get the hit.
• It is your confidence, or belief, in your ability that determines when you shoot.
The target determines the need for precision. The size of the target and the conditions under which it presents itself (movement, by standers, distance, etc.) are what determines your need for precision. You can always make the shot harder-trying to hit a button on a shirt, for example, rather than accepting any hit in the high center chest-but that works against the goal of maximum efficiency. The target and its circumstances are what determine the true need for precision.
It is your ability, with your given weapon under those given circumstances that will ultimately determine whether or not you actually get the hit you need to get. The concept should be pretty straight forward, particularly if you understand that we are not just talking about your shooting ability, but also about your ability to judge what is going on around you.
Your confidence or comfort if you will, in taking the shot at all determines when the shot is taken. Would you pull the trigger on a gun during a critical incident if you didn’t believe that you were going to be able to affect your target’s ability to hurt you or someone else? The easy and right answer is “no”. Of course there is a big exception to this rule. If you are shooting out of fear, you may be pulling the trigger as fast as you can and hoping for the best. In fact, we know this has happened many times during actual critical incidents.
You may be thinking, “So what? Isn’t this article going to tell me when I should use my sights?” No, I’m afraid it isn’t. The question “At what distance should I use my sights?” is right up there with “What gun should I carry?” as one of the least answerable questions ever asked by a student. These are questions that you have to answer. Certainly an instructor can help guide you, as this article is trying to do, but ultimately, you’re the individual ability and confidence are going to determine when you should use your sights to achieve the level of precision that you need for any given shot. I’m sure that you can imagine scenarios where you would definitely chose to use your sights to achieve a hit and those where you would not need them-only through realistic training can you test those theories.
Through realistic practical training, you will learn more about your ability under the circumstances that you are likely to find during a dynamic critical incident. Furthermore, the more realistic your training, the more likely it is to help you recognize the circumstances of a dynamic critical incident and respond more efficiently. Lastly, this type of training can also help you work with the body’s natural reactions to fear and shock and allow you to overcome the possibility of simply shooting out of fear.
The better you understand your personal balance between speed and precision, the more accurate the correlation between your belief in your ability in a dynamic critical incident and your actual ability will be, and the more efficiently you’ll be able to deal with a lethal threat.
(Rob Pincus is the Director of Operations at the world-renowned Valhalla Training Center, www.valhallatraining.com)
Speed and Precision (By Rob Pincus)
All shooting is a balance between speed and precision.
Sometimes you need to be more precise, sometimes you need to be faster. Using this concept, most defensive shooting can be described in the following way: You need to get the hit that you need to get as quickly as you can get it. This statement can be summed up in one word: Efficiency. Efficiency includes effectiveness.
In the Combat Focus ™ shooting program, we explain it this way:
• The target dictates the hit you need to get.
• Ultimately, your ability determines whether or not you get the hit.
• It is your confidence, or belief, in your ability that determines when you shoot.
The target determines the need for precision. The size of the target and the conditions under which it presents itself (movement, by standers, distance, etc.) are what determines your need for precision. You can always make the shot harder-trying to hit a button on a shirt, for example, rather than accepting any hit in the high center chest-but that works against the goal of maximum efficiency. The target and its circumstances are what determine the true need for precision.
It is your ability, with your given weapon under those given circumstances that will ultimately determine whether or not you actually get the hit you need to get. The concept should be pretty straight forward, particularly if you understand that we are not just talking about your shooting ability, but also about your ability to judge what is going on around you.
Your confidence or comfort if you will, in taking the shot at all determines when the shot is taken. Would you pull the trigger on a gun during a critical incident if you didn’t believe that you were going to be able to affect your target’s ability to hurt you or someone else? The easy and right answer is “no”. Of course there is a big exception to this rule. If you are shooting out of fear, you may be pulling the trigger as fast as you can and hoping for the best. In fact, we know this has happened many times during actual critical incidents.
You may be thinking, “So what? Isn’t this article going to tell me when I should use my sights?” No, I’m afraid it isn’t. The question “At what distance should I use my sights?” is right up there with “What gun should I carry?” as one of the least answerable questions ever asked by a student. These are questions that you have to answer. Certainly an instructor can help guide you, as this article is trying to do, but ultimately, you’re the individual ability and confidence are going to determine when you should use your sights to achieve the level of precision that you need for any given shot. I’m sure that you can imagine scenarios where you would definitely chose to use your sights to achieve a hit and those where you would not need them-only through realistic training can you test those theories.
Through realistic practical training, you will learn more about your ability under the circumstances that you are likely to find during a dynamic critical incident. Furthermore, the more realistic your training, the more likely it is to help you recognize the circumstances of a dynamic critical incident and respond more efficiently. Lastly, this type of training can also help you work with the body’s natural reactions to fear and shock and allow you to overcome the possibility of simply shooting out of fear.
The better you understand your personal balance between speed and precision, the more accurate the correlation between your belief in your ability in a dynamic critical incident and your actual ability will be, and the more efficiently you’ll be able to deal with a lethal threat.
(Rob Pincus is the Director of Operations at the world-renowned Valhalla Training Center, www.valhallatraining.com)
