Scout scopes before scout rifles?

carbines and chopped garands

Jeep Hammer,

I have not been to the Marine Corps museum, if you say you saw a chopped Garand with a forward mounted optic, maybe you did.

But all reading and sources I have ever examined state that the shortened Garand was an experiment, with only a few ever made, and I've never seen mention of one scoped in "scout" style. One M1 authority says the only true example is in the West Point museum (Scott Duff I think).

But, Navy machinists and Marine Corps armorers are an enterprising lot and who knows what was cooked up unofficially, and displayed for unknown time period in museums. The M1 Garand was scoped in several variations, with a base that attached at the forward part of the receiver, but the optic extended rearward in more conventional fashion. I suspect you likely already know this, but I thought I would bring it up. These rigs were offset left (not forward), to allow loading of the "en bloc" clip (not end block).

I was not aware that the USMC had fielded an infra red optic in WII for the M1carbine, so I found your post very interesting. In checking further, the T3 version did have provision for a day scope, but the pics I've seen put the scope over the receiver in conventional fashion. I believe there is a US outfit producing a repro of the T3 carbine with repro day scope at this time (new Inland).
 
The 'D' version had more conventional optic mounts.
You would have to find a Korean Marine armor to find out why forward mounted optics were used, I'm sure there was a reason, from a function issue to what they had available (or could 'Liberate').
Keep in mind the Marines often used what was in surplus, not used or discarded by the other services.
Marines were sent to evict the Japanese in the South Pacific with WWI bolt rifles, it took bodies stacked up like cord wood, just horrendous losses, for the Marines to get the M1 Garand...

There is some seriously freaky stuff hiding in the archives of museums.
You know field grunts, give them an opportunity and they will screw something together!
Just about every 'Military Historian' I've met has their wires crossed, stating emphatically that this or that never saw service here or there... But keep in mind before the Seals, the Marines were the 'Special Operators' and modified equipment, or 'Found' equipment to suit the particular mission.

We used to throw spools of ribbon, or hang ribbon off the muzzle of our rifles to find trip wires, the guys are using silly string to find trip wires now.
Somehow I don't think silly string is going to make it into 'Official' gear lists in historian books or in museums...
The reenactors aren't going to be hunting 'Vintage' cans of silly string.

No one is including 'Leggs' panty hose in military kit.
Leggs soaked in pickle brine & insect repellent kept the leaches & other creepy crawlies off your lower body...
That's not a visual you want in your head, but it worked.

And it's 'End Block' for me, I'm not French (en bloc), I've never dropped a rifle & ran.
 
Last edited:
scopes

I'll try to get us back on track.


The Zf41 was most used on the K98 rifle, but I have read and seen images that the STg44 could be so equipped as well. The scopes were the same (I think) but the mounts differed. I have also seen pics of the Zf41 mounted on a Luger pistol, post war, 1960.

A proper "scoutscope" is defined as intermediate eye relief (IER) as opposed to long eye relief (LER) for handguns. Some handgun scopes will work mounted in scout fashion, some may not. After the Zf41, the next, purpose built IER scope that I am aware of is the 2x fixed power Redfield FrontIER. There was also a REedfield mount marked IER from the same era, 1965 or so. I think the Burris fixed power IER scoutscope hit the market next in in the early 1980's.

Prior that, LER pistol scopes were used as discussed. WE've mentioned the Leupold M8 on carbines as early as 1966, and there may have been other earlier versions.
 
Bushnell Phantom

I just found an advertising pic of a Bushnell Phantom on a "special rifle mount" for the M94 Win. The early Phantoms were 1.3x and used a rail type mounting system. They date from the mid 60's as well.
 
No, no. Let's be accurate here. It's the Italians who drop their rifles (but only once).

The French develop weapons with operator controls on both front and back, to facilitate changing sides quickly in any conflict...
 
A proper "scoutscope" is defined as intermediate eye relief (IER) as opposed to long eye relief (LER) for handguns. Some handgun scopes will work mounted in scout fashion, some may not.
Click to expand...
That's been my experience messing around with quite a few on both handguns and lever guns. The real difference is to what degree the optics allow you a sharp site picture depending upon the distance to lens and line of sight alignment. A great scout or pistol scope isn't doing any good if you can't acquire your target quickly with it. :)
 
Last edited:
No, no. Let's be accurate here. It's the Italians who drop their rifles (but only once).

The French develop weapons with operator controls on both front and back, to facilitate changing sides quickly in any conflict...
Click to expand...

On Oct. 13, 1943, one month after Italy surrendered to Allied forces, it declared war on Nazi Germany, its onetime Axis powers partner. Italy was led into the war by Benito Mussolini, the fascist prime minister who had formed an alliance with Nazi Germany in 1936.

Italy changed sides in WW II...... they also kinda did so in WW I: In the years that led up to World War One, Italy had sided with Germany and Austria-Hungary in the Triple Alliance. ... What Italy did was wait and see how the war progressed. On April 26th 1915, she came into the war on the side of the Triple Entente – Britain, France and Russia.
 
Before Cooper's stupid idea, long eye relief scopes on rifles were for heavy recoiling calibres.

Your opinion along, which is not shared by others.

DVC
 
Before Jeff Cooper started scribbling in gun rags, we didn't need no stinkin' scopes. We put Lyman 48 receiver sights on our Sedgewick 03s and Custom Model 70 Winchesters, also in 30-06.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top