Scout scopes before scout rifles?

3

3Crows

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Since the concept of a Scout Rifle as it is taken today was advanced by Mr. Cooper in about 1983, give or take, leads to my question. Prior to this what did people call a long eye relief optic forward set on a rifle and what companies may have made these optics and rifles?

Or put another way, before Cooper decided what a Scout Rifle should be, what where the sporting (and military equivalent) and what optics did they use to accomplish the purpose?

3C
 
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There were some(a few) "intermediate eye relief" scopes mounted forward of the action on Win 94's and such. I had a pistol (long eye relief) scope mounted on the rear sight base of a 98 Mauser a long time ago--it wasn't a great set-up.
 
Some might think the current scout scopes or long eye relief optics are not a great set-up. I admit I was one of them until I actually tried it and while I agree it is not for all purposes or the only way, it is a way that works for some rifles and some purposes. But, I am interested in what, if any did, use for forward optics set ups in those pre-Cooper definition eras.
 
The only real uses I'm aware of was one option for the older top eject Winchester 94 and other top eject rifles. Or to be able to scope military bolt actions and still load via stripper clips.

I don't think Cooper was the 1st to use a forward mounted scope on a bolt gun, but he deserves credit for coming up with the "Scout" name. People have been using similar rifles, for the same purposes for a long time before Cooper. They just didn't write down specific criteria and coin a name.

Remember, Coopers "Scout" rifle could be scoped, or not. And his primary reasoning for the forward mounted scope was to be able to quickly load the military actions he preferred with stripper clips. With today's rifles with detachable magazines and today's scopes having it mounted forward offers no advantage.
 
Let's stay away from JC's concepts. I am more interested what was done before him for multi-purpose rifles and the optics they used. You mention long(er) eye relief scopes on Winchester 94s, what were they?

3C
 
A friends dad had an old 81 Rem in 35 with the scope mounted forward of the receiver.
That was many moons ago, seem to remember it being some kind of Weaver.
It was blued steel with a 1" objective.
 
Before Cooper's stupid idea, long eye relief scopes on rifles were for heavy recoiling calibres. Prevented Weatherby eye brow. Most were in the 4" range. Mind you, some sniper's rifles had a scope on the barrel. Forget which one.
"...what did people call a..." Usually, "What'd you do that for?"
 
to be able to scope military bolt actions and still load via stripper clips.The first one I am aware of was called Zielfernrohr 41, which roughly means "Telescopic Sight"
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The Germans made something on the order of 100 thousand of them in WW II.

Before Cooper's stupid idea.....
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"It's not stupid if it works." It does work.

Just because you do not like a thing does not make the thing stupid.
 
I thought them stupid also until I actually decided to try it. My Nikon African 1X4 is 4 inch ER but that is not enough for comfort with a Marlin SBL. But this not why I ask the original question, just more curiosity if there were long eye relief, greater than 4 or 5 inches before the concept of a "Scout" rifle came along in 1983.
 
Zf41

The Zf41 forward scope on the German Mauser 98 marksman rifles are the earliest examples of what we call scout scopes that I know of. Note that the idea was that these were designated marksman rifles, not sniper rifles. Also a modern 1" IER scope is far superior to the tiny ZF41 of nearly 75 years ago.

More recently, a 1966 magazine article shows a forward mounted Leupold M8 2x pistol scope in a Buehler mount on a Rem 600 carbine. I think Leupold made such a mount for the M94 Winchester as well. My Dad had a Leupold M8 2x on a Win '94 in the 1970's, I think Buehler made that mount too.

I may recall some photos of the old Bushnell Phantom pistol scope on carbines. The Phantom had it's own mount system....my memory of that arrangement is not clear.
 
article

That article I referred to in 1966 was written by Cooper. The Buehler mount was called the Code 6, and made specifically for the Rem m600. I suppose they made other versions as well for the M94 win and so on.

Cooper liked the arrangement, and I'm sure, was the beginning of his scout theory.
 
My Dad always called the long eye relief scope he mounted on his M94 as a "carbine scope". If I recall, it was a weaver.

FWIW, I've always thought that the Remington 600 in 6mm Remington would have been the ideal woods gun. Another great gun shunned by the America gun buying public.
 
In his early newsletters where he was talking about his scout rifle concept, he mentioned using pistol scopes. Either there was no long-eye-relief rifle scopes then, or he didn't know about them.
 
Springfield 1903 Cavalry Carbine....
https://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=107413&d=1524888885
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Now that one I really like. :cool:

Short, handy, and still retains the ability to be loaded via stripper clips.

All you need to add is some sort of forward-mount base in place of that rear hand-guard ... say, two Weaver-style bases drilled & tapped on the barrel, as on some of early scouts, or a one-unit picatinny mount like the Ultimak, although the Ultimak would likely require minor mods to the stock on this carbine.

Then just add the 'scout scope' of your choice and go kill elk, moose, or Commies. :D

And actually, this carbine's '06 chambering is an advantage, in that you can download it to .308 levels with 150gn bullets, or upload it hot with 200gn/220gn bear-stopper slugs.
 
agtman said:
Now that one I really like. :cool:

Then just add the 'scout scope' of your choice and go kill elk, moose, or Commies. :D
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Well, that was the question, what old, period correct or vintage "scout" scope, long(er) eye relief scope was available during the times these rifles were used and or later sporterized?

3C
 
While some people pray at the alter of Jeff Cooper, I'm old enough to remember he threw everything at the wall and saw what stuck... For everything that Cooper got right, there were two dozen that faded into history.

The idea of a forward mounted (Short) optic is evidenced by a WWI rifles used by the partisans fighting Germans. I can't remember the maker anymore (I *Think* Italian hunting g rifle) with what's more or less a surveyor's magnified optic mounted on them.
The 8mm (7.92mm Mauser) rifles were MUCH more powerful, the partisans took up accuracy the only way they could.
Marine Corps weapons museum dragged a couple back to the US and that's were I saw them.
Cobbled together, but I guess they worked...

During WWII the M1 Carbine had a 'Day Scope' to replace the infrared rig, it was forward mounted although it could have been mounted directly over receiver.
The mount for the infrared optic blocked the M1 Carbine sight, so the little day optic was included.
The only one I've seen was at the national firearms museum in a WWII display.

In the Korean Conflict the Marines tried an M1 Garand chopped short with a forward mounted optic (so end block clips could be loaded). There are 4 or 5 of those existing in the Marine Corps museum also.
Both shoulder stock & barrel are shortened, and the optic looks much like a modern pistol optic, banded on the barrel just in front of the receiver.

I have no issues with a 'Scout' mounted optic.
If you aren't hung up on what something is *Supposed* to look like, and you are willing to train with the optic until you become proficient, I have ZERO issues with it.
Some of the heavy pistol recoil means some of the pistol optics are built TOUGH, so handling recoil from say, .45-70 years on end isn't an issue.

I don't have vision that allows me to use a 'Scout' mount, but I've built & installed mounts a bunch of times and the guys that have them love them, I mean they REALLY love them!

It doesn't matter who/where they came from, it's worked out now!
 
Back in the early 70's I bought a Ithaca mod.37, 12 gauge with the Deerslayer barrel. I mounted a Leupold m8, extended eye relief scope on the barrels rear sight. The rear sight base was grooved for scope mounts, so the scope stayed on the barrel when you removed it to put on a different barrel, that was a great system, the scope never needed to be resighted when I changed barrels. That was my first experience with a scout style set-up. It was easy to get on target fast with that set-up.
 
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