You misunderstand me. I have no problem with Mr. Cooper or his scout rifle concept. I never said that a Winchester 94 could equal the range or the cal of the Steyr. My problem is someone posts a topic and asks for comments. Then when comments are made he takes many of them and ridicules them with little explanation in another post. Was the object of the original post to share opinions of the different scout rifle concepts mentioned and Jeff Coopers thoughts on the subject or something else? I will go back and re-read the original post yet again to see if I missed the point.
Scout Rifle Taxonomy
- Thread starter ctdonath
- Start date
My word, you are touchy!
If I knew this was going to be a worship session for JC, I would have brought a donation...
I've been reading Jeff since the '50s, have a couple of his books, and yes, have owned a SM Model L, probably the most accurate 6 pound carbine I've ever shot. I own about a dozen Colt 45 Automatics. All that said, Cooper is a pompous windbag when it comes to any questioning of any of his windy opinions. I do agree with a lot of his political views and his gun views, just not all of them. And yes the "royal WE" is out of place, although I can stand it, it does sound affected and queer.
There are other solutions to the problem than a $2700 jungle carbine. Try an M1A if you don't like the AR15, either one is at least as good and less than half the price.
For someone who is not among the chosen orange gunsite alumni, a Glock 17 or 19 is a heckuva lot easier to learn to shoot than ole slabsides. Not all of us have a lifetime career of going to the range, like JC, or apparently Ctdonath.
If I knew this was going to be a worship session for JC, I would have brought a donation...
I've been reading Jeff since the '50s, have a couple of his books, and yes, have owned a SM Model L, probably the most accurate 6 pound carbine I've ever shot. I own about a dozen Colt 45 Automatics. All that said, Cooper is a pompous windbag when it comes to any questioning of any of his windy opinions. I do agree with a lot of his political views and his gun views, just not all of them. And yes the "royal WE" is out of place, although I can stand it, it does sound affected and queer.
There are other solutions to the problem than a $2700 jungle carbine. Try an M1A if you don't like the AR15, either one is at least as good and less than half the price.
For someone who is not among the chosen orange gunsite alumni, a Glock 17 or 19 is a heckuva lot easier to learn to shoot than ole slabsides. Not all of us have a lifetime career of going to the range, like JC, or apparently Ctdonath.
Lets get personal......
Can't "we" simply agree to disagree rather than make personal attacks or criticisms? Keep your attacks confined to public personages.
Cooper is a complicated man. I have never spoken with him but I have read much of what he has written and have corresponded. We largely do not agree politically and I have told him so. His response was someone to the effect he wouldn't respect anyone who agreed with him 100%. A little different than the puppet master, founder of the ditto heads who does their thinking for them.
I don't think the concept of the scout rifle or the Modern Technique of the Pistol are meant to be the last word on their respective subjects. They are exercizes in analyzing the issues and a forum to help understand and improve. Who else is doing this--gratis? No one! Most discussion of these issues are confined to the Gun Mags and are self serving and pander to commerical interests.
Cooper is usually right on many issues involving rifles and pistols. I didn't see this when I first read about a topic but discovered by experience later--an expensive and long road.
When Cooper is gone there will be a void that all of us will miss although I think many won't realize it. The problem is there should be more than one Jeff Cooper type figure in the shooting world. What Cooper brings isn't technical knowledge of firearms but a burning intellectual curiosity to question why but also a desire to be a well rounded man. I don't see many other "gun writers" quoting Greek historians or poets for that matter. Guns are not the only thing in his life. They are a part, an important part.
Can't "we" simply agree to disagree rather than make personal attacks or criticisms? Keep your attacks confined to public personages.
Cooper is a complicated man. I have never spoken with him but I have read much of what he has written and have corresponded. We largely do not agree politically and I have told him so. His response was someone to the effect he wouldn't respect anyone who agreed with him 100%. A little different than the puppet master, founder of the ditto heads who does their thinking for them.
I don't think the concept of the scout rifle or the Modern Technique of the Pistol are meant to be the last word on their respective subjects. They are exercizes in analyzing the issues and a forum to help understand and improve. Who else is doing this--gratis? No one! Most discussion of these issues are confined to the Gun Mags and are self serving and pander to commerical interests.
Cooper is usually right on many issues involving rifles and pistols. I didn't see this when I first read about a topic but discovered by experience later--an expensive and long road.
When Cooper is gone there will be a void that all of us will miss although I think many won't realize it. The problem is there should be more than one Jeff Cooper type figure in the shooting world. What Cooper brings isn't technical knowledge of firearms but a burning intellectual curiosity to question why but also a desire to be a well rounded man. I don't see many other "gun writers" quoting Greek historians or poets for that matter. Guns are not the only thing in his life. They are a part, an important part.
And my contrary opinion wasn't formed overnight, ctdonath. Matter of fact, my disagreement with The Guru started with a certain IPSC Board of Directors meeting in Nevada, with the eventual falling out of the different camps. And then the full-house hicap race guns started taking over the sport...
But perhaps that's neither a useful or valid reason for disagreeing with another person's opinions and methodology. And that's all he is, a person, not an icon, deity, or anything else, forgive me if I'm not listed in Cooper's Commentaries as a member of The Family, guess I'm going straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to antagonize Cooper's followers. He's done more than anyone I know to remind people how viable the 1911 is in this day and age of wondernines. And truer words were never spoken in his Commentaries. And now that Grey Gunsite is semi-Orange again, I would like to attend, but to date I spent my training money at Mas Ayoob's LFI, and will also spend training time with the Chandlers at Iron Brigade this coming year. Thunder Ranch is in my plans, too.
There's a reason folks are lukewarm or even cold over Cooper's Scout, and it has a lot to do with how his disciples come off, too. Patrick66 hit that one on the head. You don't post a message to a forum over a controversial topic like the Scout Rifle, dealing with a controversial man like LtCol Cooper, then include a link of rants over the non-patented concept, without expecting some sort of dissenting opinion, do you? I appreciate and commend the effort to educate folks on the One True Scout, but it's really bad form to lambast the responses of those who were invited to reply, and chose to exercise their right to reply in a differing opinion. Congratulations on your $2700 Steyr Scout and your training time with The Guru. I hope you shoot it, and shoot it a lot. You can shoot it so much the throat gets eroded away and the accuracy falls off, don't sweat it, you can get a new one. There will be more Steyr Scouts available, since many of us unwashed have chosen not to buy one.
But perhaps that's neither a useful or valid reason for disagreeing with another person's opinions and methodology. And that's all he is, a person, not an icon, deity, or anything else, forgive me if I'm not listed in Cooper's Commentaries as a member of The Family, guess I'm going straight to hell, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to antagonize Cooper's followers. He's done more than anyone I know to remind people how viable the 1911 is in this day and age of wondernines. And truer words were never spoken in his Commentaries. And now that Grey Gunsite is semi-Orange again, I would like to attend, but to date I spent my training money at Mas Ayoob's LFI, and will also spend training time with the Chandlers at Iron Brigade this coming year. Thunder Ranch is in my plans, too.
There's a reason folks are lukewarm or even cold over Cooper's Scout, and it has a lot to do with how his disciples come off, too. Patrick66 hit that one on the head. You don't post a message to a forum over a controversial topic like the Scout Rifle, dealing with a controversial man like LtCol Cooper, then include a link of rants over the non-patented concept, without expecting some sort of dissenting opinion, do you? I appreciate and commend the effort to educate folks on the One True Scout, but it's really bad form to lambast the responses of those who were invited to reply, and chose to exercise their right to reply in a differing opinion. Congratulations on your $2700 Steyr Scout and your training time with The Guru. I hope you shoot it, and shoot it a lot. You can shoot it so much the throat gets eroded away and the accuracy falls off, don't sweat it, you can get a new one. There will be more Steyr Scouts available, since many of us unwashed have chosen not to buy one.
Rosco Benson
New member
As to the use of "we" in Cooper's writing; it is not a "royal" we, it is an "editorial" we.
Jeff Cooper does seem to stir things up a bit with his observations. I think that this is mainly due to the fact that he will develop and express an OPINION. This is pretty uncommon these days. Most gun-zine articles arrive at some mealy-mouthed non-conclusion of "well, just about everything works okay, so use what you prefer."...hard hitting journalism, eh?
While it doesn't bother me to see posts from people who disagree with Cooper's opinions, the ones that include name-calling would seem to reveal more about the poster than about that upon which he is commenting. Above and beyond the great debt we shooters owe Cooper for his life's work of advancing the art of practical pistolcraft, some people have apparently forgotten that we ought respect our elders and our betters.
Rosco
Jeff Cooper does seem to stir things up a bit with his observations. I think that this is mainly due to the fact that he will develop and express an OPINION. This is pretty uncommon these days. Most gun-zine articles arrive at some mealy-mouthed non-conclusion of "well, just about everything works okay, so use what you prefer."...hard hitting journalism, eh?
While it doesn't bother me to see posts from people who disagree with Cooper's opinions, the ones that include name-calling would seem to reveal more about the poster than about that upon which he is commenting. Above and beyond the great debt we shooters owe Cooper for his life's work of advancing the art of practical pistolcraft, some people have apparently forgotten that we ought respect our elders and our betters.
Rosco
It appears that the Cooperite nest has been stirred by the stick of the AntiCoop and the OPINIONS are swarming! Lets all chill and go to another subject about rifles as I am the least experienced in the group on the rifle subject as I have concentrated on handguns most of my shooting career. I really don't want to argue about "elders" and "betters". By the way just what is the definition of a "better"? Never mind I'm gone....Bye Bye.
Are you saying that opinions contrary to yours and JC's are of no value or consequence? This is still an open forum,
isn't it? I have no opinions because I have no first-hand experience with the Scout concept.
it's really bad form to lambast the responses of those who were invited to reply
Go back and review what I wrote. I am NOT critical of those who present contrary opinions based on useful experience and facts, to the contrary I highly value those opinions and ponder them long after. I AM critical of those many who, upon mere mention of "Cooper" or "scout rifle", write scathing insults about the man or the rifle and - incredibly - admit in the same message that they have read little of his writings, or have never fired (if even seen) the rifle. I am frankly stunned at how many are so quick to bash Cooper, yet have nothing meaningful to substantiate those bashings.
Saying "I've used a scout rifle while hunting, and find the scope design difficult to use at twilight when my game is most active" is a useful criticism.
Saying "I've used the Steyr Scout under a variety of conditions, but still prefer my M1 Garand" is a useful comment.
Saying "I've held a Steyr Scout and think a $99 Jungle Carbine would be similarly useful" is not a useful comment.
Saying "My definition of a scout rifle is..." is pompous ignorance.
You don't post a message to a forum over a controversial topic like the Scout Rifle, dealing with a controversial man like LtCol Cooper, then include a link of rants over the non-patented concept, without expecting some sort of dissenting opinion, do you?
I expect dissenting opinions. That's fine.
What I don't expect is the majority of respondents to fling baseless insults.
I took the time to write up a taxononmy in the hopes that it might be useful and mildly amusing, and invited comments with the expectation that said comments would mostly constitute modifications to the taxonomy. I did NOT expect virtually all of the comments to be Cooper-bashing, scout-rifle-bashing, and personal attacks.
isn't it? I have no opinions because I have no first-hand experience with the Scout concept.
it's really bad form to lambast the responses of those who were invited to reply
Go back and review what I wrote. I am NOT critical of those who present contrary opinions based on useful experience and facts, to the contrary I highly value those opinions and ponder them long after. I AM critical of those many who, upon mere mention of "Cooper" or "scout rifle", write scathing insults about the man or the rifle and - incredibly - admit in the same message that they have read little of his writings, or have never fired (if even seen) the rifle. I am frankly stunned at how many are so quick to bash Cooper, yet have nothing meaningful to substantiate those bashings.
Saying "I've used a scout rifle while hunting, and find the scope design difficult to use at twilight when my game is most active" is a useful criticism.
Saying "I've used the Steyr Scout under a variety of conditions, but still prefer my M1 Garand" is a useful comment.
Saying "I've held a Steyr Scout and think a $99 Jungle Carbine would be similarly useful" is not a useful comment.
Saying "My definition of a scout rifle is..." is pompous ignorance.
You don't post a message to a forum over a controversial topic like the Scout Rifle, dealing with a controversial man like LtCol Cooper, then include a link of rants over the non-patented concept, without expecting some sort of dissenting opinion, do you?
I expect dissenting opinions. That's fine.
What I don't expect is the majority of respondents to fling baseless insults.
I took the time to write up a taxononmy in the hopes that it might be useful and mildly amusing, and invited comments with the expectation that said comments would mostly constitute modifications to the taxonomy. I did NOT expect virtually all of the comments to be Cooper-bashing, scout-rifle-bashing, and personal attacks.
Carl,
First, it's obvious you took some time drawing up this page. It looks quite nice. Thanks for sharing it with us.
I enjoy reading Col Cooper, if I may not always agree politically with him. I am sorry I missed him at the '99 SHOT show.
I have fired the Steyr Scout, and found it handy and accurate. I believe the heavy crosshairs kept me from fully utilizing the inherent accuracy of the piece. I have heard reports from folks I trust and respect regarding light primer strikes. Since ready ammo supply is one of the most salient characteristics of the Scout concept, I believe this to be a serious issue, regardless of what you choose to feed your SS w/ in these United States.
I like forward-mounted, low-power scopes (for certain applications). I should have 3 shoulder arms equipped in this manner within the '01 year. The problem with the Cooper Scout Concept, as I see it, is this: range and power.
You and I both know there is no single arm that can "do-it-all". I believe the forward-mounted, low-power scope- which serves so well for quick, offhand shots- to deny the .308 "Scout" rifle a useful longe-range capability. That's the range aspect.
400 kilos is a lot. I believe the .308 to be a most excellent American (whitetail, blacktail, and mule) deer round. I do not believe it to be truly useful on resilient or very large animals, and I personally feel any animal over 300 lbs is pretty damn large. YMMV. Eric Ching, of "Ching Sling" fame- and a Cooper advocate by definition- found his .350 Rem Mag wanting when he was hunting plains game. (Look under "The Bottom Line".) I quote: Only my warthog went down immediately...several of the animals I shot...had to be tracked for anywhere from half an hour to several hours... Again, this was with the magnum, not the .308. Eric is shown with a Grant's zebra. These animals max at 600 lbs, and if a 225-grn bullet @ 2500 fps barely does the job, something tells me that the (most commonly available) 150-grn @ 2820 fps bullet will not work. (In fact, Eric only used the .308 on a little impala, which jumped back up after being drilled through both lungs.)
So: the .308 is not really capable of taking game as large as postulated, and the platform denies truly distant targets.
My conclusion is this: the Scout concept is a good one, but .308 is not the round. I therefore suggest a shorter-ranged round that is capable of taking any land animal, from the least to the greatest: the 12 GA shotgun.
There is no universally useful rifle cartridge.
First, it's obvious you took some time drawing up this page. It looks quite nice. Thanks for sharing it with us.
I enjoy reading Col Cooper, if I may not always agree politically with him. I am sorry I missed him at the '99 SHOT show.
I have fired the Steyr Scout, and found it handy and accurate. I believe the heavy crosshairs kept me from fully utilizing the inherent accuracy of the piece. I have heard reports from folks I trust and respect regarding light primer strikes. Since ready ammo supply is one of the most salient characteristics of the Scout concept, I believe this to be a serious issue, regardless of what you choose to feed your SS w/ in these United States.
I like forward-mounted, low-power scopes (for certain applications). I should have 3 shoulder arms equipped in this manner within the '01 year. The problem with the Cooper Scout Concept, as I see it, is this: range and power.
You and I both know there is no single arm that can "do-it-all". I believe the forward-mounted, low-power scope- which serves so well for quick, offhand shots- to deny the .308 "Scout" rifle a useful longe-range capability. That's the range aspect.
400 kilos is a lot. I believe the .308 to be a most excellent American (whitetail, blacktail, and mule) deer round. I do not believe it to be truly useful on resilient or very large animals, and I personally feel any animal over 300 lbs is pretty damn large. YMMV. Eric Ching, of "Ching Sling" fame- and a Cooper advocate by definition- found his .350 Rem Mag wanting when he was hunting plains game. (Look under "The Bottom Line".) I quote: Only my warthog went down immediately...several of the animals I shot...had to be tracked for anywhere from half an hour to several hours... Again, this was with the magnum, not the .308. Eric is shown with a Grant's zebra. These animals max at 600 lbs, and if a 225-grn bullet @ 2500 fps barely does the job, something tells me that the (most commonly available) 150-grn @ 2820 fps bullet will not work. (In fact, Eric only used the .308 on a little impala, which jumped back up after being drilled through both lungs.)
So: the .308 is not really capable of taking game as large as postulated, and the platform denies truly distant targets.
My conclusion is this: the Scout concept is a good one, but .308 is not the round. I therefore suggest a shorter-ranged round that is capable of taking any land animal, from the least to the greatest: the 12 GA shotgun.
There is no universally useful rifle cartridge.I have owned a Steyr Scout Rifle for two years now [it was my x mas present to myself one year ]
I will say I have never had any problems with the "light primer strikes" even in MN winter with my gun on the standard factory setting for the firing pin. But so far the only ammo I have shot in my Scout has been Hornady Light magnums [150 grains], Federal 150 Ballistic tips, Federal 165 Gamekings, and Winchester's 180 Silvertips.
I have some tracer and military ball sitting in the gun closet that I haven't had a chance to shoot yet, but with a little luck I will get to before the winter is over here in MN and if so I will post a report.
I agree with Spectre that the Scout rifle in 308 is not a true GP hunting rifle. Specially with the Cooper Package scope with it's over 3 MOA crosshairs.
I think a standard scope like a fixed 4X or a low power variable can do all that a Scout scope can and more YMMV. With standard sized cross hairs I know my Scout rifle would be fine on any "medium" sized big game out to at least 300 yards. But I wouldn't expect great bullet performace at that range from that gun. Hornady's 150 grain Light Magnums only clocked im the 2760 or so range out of my gun. And I don't like the light magnum loads because they leave a lot more powder fouling.
]I will say I have never had any problems with the "light primer strikes" even in MN winter with my gun on the standard factory setting for the firing pin. But so far the only ammo I have shot in my Scout has been Hornady Light magnums [150 grains], Federal 150 Ballistic tips, Federal 165 Gamekings, and Winchester's 180 Silvertips.
I have some tracer and military ball sitting in the gun closet that I haven't had a chance to shoot yet, but with a little luck I will get to before the winter is over here in MN and if so I will post a report.
I agree with Spectre that the Scout rifle in 308 is not a true GP hunting rifle. Specially with the Cooper Package scope with it's over 3 MOA crosshairs.
I think a standard scope like a fixed 4X or a low power variable can do all that a Scout scope can and more YMMV. With standard sized cross hairs I know my Scout rifle would be fine on any "medium" sized big game out to at least 300 yards. But I wouldn't expect great bullet performace at that range from that gun. Hornady's 150 grain Light Magnums only clocked im the 2760 or so range out of my gun. And I don't like the light magnum loads because they leave a lot more powder fouling.
Re: light primer hits
Yes, light primer hits are occasionally an issue, something that Styer has received inadequate information (i.e.: factual parameters) about hence they're not sure what the problem really is. Light hits can be about 90% solved by a simple firing pin adjustment (take out the pin and move the stop washer back one notch). That's solved the problem for all but the worst ammo (in my case, slightly corroded Chilean military surplus from 1974)...and firing crap through a $2700 rifle does seem silly.
Yes, light primer hits are occasionally an issue, something that Styer has received inadequate information (i.e.: factual parameters) about hence they're not sure what the problem really is. Light hits can be about 90% solved by a simple firing pin adjustment (take out the pin and move the stop washer back one notch). That's solved the problem for all but the worst ammo (in my case, slightly corroded Chilean military surplus from 1974)...and firing crap through a $2700 rifle does seem silly.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
One more personal remark and lights go out.
K?
He he he... the Lemming Scout... That was a good one.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13594
K?
He he he... the Lemming Scout... That was a good one.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13594
Then again, to quote from further up the same page: "I had no complaints as far as gun or ammo performance on this trip." My impression is that Mr. Ching thought that the African animals were simply too tough to be dropped easily by any caliber without perfect shot placement.
The Steyr Scout is perhaps the single worst representation of the "Scout Concept" currently extant. It is a shame that Cooper allowed his name to be hung on it. In retrospect, i am fairly sure that Steyr sold him a bill of goods, as they did the rest of us.
I have a lot of experience fixing these things, and they have a lot of inherent problems that can not be fixed short of having the factory change their weak design. Since they are STEYR, they will not.
TOOOO Long chambers that close on a No Go gauge.
Barrels that are pressed into an aluminum receiver, thus preventing rechambering or rebarrelling.
Terrible bolt handle design.
VERY Rough internals.
Non standard scope mounts.
Flimsy bipods.
Weak latches on the spare mag compartment.
The list goes on, but I have wasted more time and energy trying to make silk purses from sow's ears a la the Steyr Scout than any half dozen other weird projects I can think of.
Bear in mind that I have nothing against the original "Scout Concept" per se, I just feel that Steyr has perpetrated a huge ripoff in the marketing and manufacture of their version of the concept.
Anyone that disagrees with me is, of course, entirely wrong.
I have a lot of experience fixing these things, and they have a lot of inherent problems that can not be fixed short of having the factory change their weak design. Since they are STEYR, they will not.
TOOOO Long chambers that close on a No Go gauge.
Barrels that are pressed into an aluminum receiver, thus preventing rechambering or rebarrelling.
Terrible bolt handle design.
VERY Rough internals.
Non standard scope mounts.
Flimsy bipods.
Weak latches on the spare mag compartment.
The list goes on, but I have wasted more time and energy trying to make silk purses from sow's ears a la the Steyr Scout than any half dozen other weird projects I can think of.
Bear in mind that I have nothing against the original "Scout Concept" per se, I just feel that Steyr has perpetrated a huge ripoff in the marketing and manufacture of their version of the concept.
Anyone that disagrees with me is, of course, entirely wrong.
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Correcting a Few Myths
Sigh-
- Jeff Cooper makes no money on the Steyr Scout or his magazine articles: The former was a labor of love; the latter contract was paid to the former owner of Gunsite, not Jeff.
- The Steyr "Dragoon" in .376 is quite manageable for this 145lb frame. As pleasant to shoot as my 45-70.
- Calling Jeff Cooper a "gun writer" is like calling Gale McMillan a "stock maker". Jeff is a Teacher in the finest sense. Virtually every firearms trainer in the country has borrowed some of the Cooper Doctrine for his courses. IDPA and the later IPSC both owe their existence to Cooper.
- Cooper's expertise is not primarily with the pistol. That interest only developed in later years. The rifle has always been Cooper's first love.
- Stripper clips are turn of the century, ancient technology. So's the 1911 and the bolt action; so what?
__________________________________
I own a Steyr Scout....I'm proud to say it was signed by Cooper, in Africa, on the occasion of his 80th birthday. I don't have great practical use for the Steyr (given the alternatives), but I certainly do have use for the concept. Everything Mad Dog states about the rifle's drawbacks is correct....again, so what? If Cooper is guilty of anything, it's that he embraces the one gun maker who was willing to give him "88%", in his own words.
People wish to nit-pick Cooper's taxonomy....however, the more I see of rifles that claim to be "Scouts" or "Pseudo Scouts" the more convinced I am that Cooper was right on the money whem he clearly and narrowly defined the Scout.
Face it...scout (small "s") rifles have been around a long time. Some might consider my FN Para to be one for their purposes. But Cooper's the one who described a Scout (capital "S"). He did so in order to define a concept; his concept. Not a revolutionary design, but an amalgam of existing features that he thought would make a fine rifle. And so they do, Steyr not withstanding.
So take issue with the IER scope; with the weight; with the legnth; with the caliber. But don't attack the man's character on generalizations. It's real bad form....and he's done more for our cause than any 16 or 20 of us put together.
Rich Lucibella
Sigh-
- Jeff Cooper makes no money on the Steyr Scout or his magazine articles: The former was a labor of love; the latter contract was paid to the former owner of Gunsite, not Jeff.
- The Steyr "Dragoon" in .376 is quite manageable for this 145lb frame. As pleasant to shoot as my 45-70.
- Calling Jeff Cooper a "gun writer" is like calling Gale McMillan a "stock maker". Jeff is a Teacher in the finest sense. Virtually every firearms trainer in the country has borrowed some of the Cooper Doctrine for his courses. IDPA and the later IPSC both owe their existence to Cooper.
- Cooper's expertise is not primarily with the pistol. That interest only developed in later years. The rifle has always been Cooper's first love.
- Stripper clips are turn of the century, ancient technology. So's the 1911 and the bolt action; so what?
__________________________________
I own a Steyr Scout....I'm proud to say it was signed by Cooper, in Africa, on the occasion of his 80th birthday. I don't have great practical use for the Steyr (given the alternatives), but I certainly do have use for the concept. Everything Mad Dog states about the rifle's drawbacks is correct....again, so what? If Cooper is guilty of anything, it's that he embraces the one gun maker who was willing to give him "88%", in his own words.
People wish to nit-pick Cooper's taxonomy....however, the more I see of rifles that claim to be "Scouts" or "Pseudo Scouts" the more convinced I am that Cooper was right on the money whem he clearly and narrowly defined the Scout.
Face it...scout (small "s") rifles have been around a long time. Some might consider my FN Para to be one for their purposes. But Cooper's the one who described a Scout (capital "S"). He did so in order to define a concept; his concept. Not a revolutionary design, but an amalgam of existing features that he thought would make a fine rifle. And so they do, Steyr not withstanding.
So take issue with the IER scope; with the weight; with the legnth; with the caliber. But don't attack the man's character on generalizations. It's real bad form....and he's done more for our cause than any 16 or 20 of us put together.
Rich Lucibella
Blue Duck357
New member
People do tend to be jumping our beloved Col. a bit hard. At least he went out and fought for his concept of a "General Purpose" rifle to be made and claimed responsibility when it was finished. Of course how people reacted to this was to say there were better benchrest/assault/battle/varmint rifles available for each respective use. Thats like looking at a new Chevy Suburban and dismissing it because a Ferrari's faster and a bulldozer can get through rougher terrain.
Yes Cooper brings a lot of this on himself, Mad Dog made some excellent points about the STEYR and Coopers responces to such constructive critisism range from the reasonable (88% correct) to the arrogant stating that anyone trying to build a better rifle (than his 88% version) is wasting there time and money. The second stance he takes causes him the disdain of a lot of folks and it should. Cooper is a great man with a lot of wisdom but to tell every other firearms expert in the world to hang up thier tools because him and STEYR have ended the general purpose rifle race is silly and offensive. I also wonder where these ideas of his come from? In one papragraph he will say everyone should stop trying to improve his rifle as it can't be done and in the next will meander on about how a semi automatic or lever action might be just the ticket (if it could meet specs).
Basically I think you can respectivly disagree with the guy (as he apparently does with himself sometimes) but he's been too far and seen too much too simply dismiss his ideas.
I'll personally never lay down $2500.00 for any rifle. I'll stick with my Enfields and Yugo's and such, But if someone want's one great, but please leave the royal "we" for Cooper and don't dismiss everthing else you see at the range because "you got yours". But isn't it neat that this little rifle I have yet to see even one of in town is quickly becoming the "Middle East" of rifle forums.
Blue Duck
P.S. Didn't use a stripper clip until 1992 and I still think they're a great little gadget
Yes Cooper brings a lot of this on himself, Mad Dog made some excellent points about the STEYR and Coopers responces to such constructive critisism range from the reasonable (88% correct) to the arrogant stating that anyone trying to build a better rifle (than his 88% version) is wasting there time and money. The second stance he takes causes him the disdain of a lot of folks and it should. Cooper is a great man with a lot of wisdom but to tell every other firearms expert in the world to hang up thier tools because him and STEYR have ended the general purpose rifle race is silly and offensive. I also wonder where these ideas of his come from? In one papragraph he will say everyone should stop trying to improve his rifle as it can't be done and in the next will meander on about how a semi automatic or lever action might be just the ticket (if it could meet specs).
Basically I think you can respectivly disagree with the guy (as he apparently does with himself sometimes) but he's been too far and seen too much too simply dismiss his ideas.
I'll personally never lay down $2500.00 for any rifle. I'll stick with my Enfields and Yugo's and such, But if someone want's one great, but please leave the royal "we" for Cooper and don't dismiss everthing else you see at the range because "you got yours". But isn't it neat that this little rifle I have yet to see even one of in town is quickly becoming the "Middle East" of rifle forums.
Blue Duck
P.S. Didn't use a stripper clip until 1992 and I still think they're a great little gadget
How true
"...and he's done more for our cause than any 16 or 20 of us put together."
How very true.
But anyone who takes a position and issues unequivocal statements lays themselves open for attacks. I have read all his books and all of his online Commentaries (I even have them printed and bound). There are many great gems in his writings. His is a great mind. However, sometimes you must dig through bombast to get to the gems. He dismisses many ideas, some with good reason some with not. His dislike of double action pistols; the "crunchentickers" is OK. If you don't like them, that's OK. But to support the Bren Ten, a double action pistol, as a "true step forward" is hypocritical, although the 10mm cartridge is fantastic. I like them man, I really do. But I take some things he says with a grain of salt.
He must be very downcast about some of his endeavours. To have pushed so hard for a practical pistol shooting competition and see it turned in to IPSC, which is the most unpractical type of shooting, must really be hard.
To his stout defenders, Good on ya mate! But I doubt the man needs your protection. In a battle of wits, he is very heavily armed.
Roscoe, I don't respect my elders just because they are older. Clinton is older than me and he gets none of my respect along with many people older than I. However, in experiences, in learning and depth of thought, I have to admit the Colonel is my better. He is a curmudgeon. But with what he has seen and done, he has earned it. Hell, the older I get the more curmudgeonly I become and I am still on the sunny side of 50.
"...and he's done more for our cause than any 16 or 20 of us put together."
How very true.
But anyone who takes a position and issues unequivocal statements lays themselves open for attacks. I have read all his books and all of his online Commentaries (I even have them printed and bound). There are many great gems in his writings. His is a great mind. However, sometimes you must dig through bombast to get to the gems. He dismisses many ideas, some with good reason some with not. His dislike of double action pistols; the "crunchentickers" is OK. If you don't like them, that's OK. But to support the Bren Ten, a double action pistol, as a "true step forward" is hypocritical, although the 10mm cartridge is fantastic. I like them man, I really do. But I take some things he says with a grain of salt.
He must be very downcast about some of his endeavours. To have pushed so hard for a practical pistol shooting competition and see it turned in to IPSC, which is the most unpractical type of shooting, must really be hard.
To his stout defenders, Good on ya mate! But I doubt the man needs your protection. In a battle of wits, he is very heavily armed.
Roscoe, I don't respect my elders just because they are older. Clinton is older than me and he gets none of my respect along with many people older than I. However, in experiences, in learning and depth of thought, I have to admit the Colonel is my better. He is a curmudgeon. But with what he has seen and done, he has earned it. Hell, the older I get the more curmudgeonly I become and I am still on the sunny side of 50.
The fact that JC made a few bad decisions...
does not make me feel sorry for him. He is over 21 and responsible for his actions. He obviously doesn't have much business acumen if he let the gray Gunsite guy rip him off for all his future income from Guns and Ammo. In my opinion, he still gets a million dollars worth of free publicity from his national exposure in gun mags and his internet columns.
Like I said many times (look it up): I am a big fan of JC, but when I hear an unvarnished canonization of an obviously fallible guy like me or you, I have a hard time not gagging.
Yes, Coop is a great voice for gunowners, but a bolt gun is not the answer to much of anything, except to a bolt gun lover, which I'm not. I've owned at least a dozen, including a beloved Steyr Mannlicher, and several Rem 700s but the technology is too archaic for me. On the other hand, I still like the Colt 45 Auto, but do not kid myself that there are other weapons far more adaptable to today. The real thing is, IMHO, the 45 Auto cartridge is the best D@MN auto pistol round ever invented, but for that we need to build a shrine to JMB, not JC. I knew the 45 Auto was the best long before JC shared that with me and you.
All of you bolt gunners, Steyr owners, love your weapons, if they are what you want, fine, I applaud you. But somebody who doesn't know much about rifles would do well to try lots of different types before settling on a particular solution on anybody's say-so, including the hallowed LTC Jeff Cooper. I think he would agree with that advice, too.
does not make me feel sorry for him. He is over 21 and responsible for his actions. He obviously doesn't have much business acumen if he let the gray Gunsite guy rip him off for all his future income from Guns and Ammo. In my opinion, he still gets a million dollars worth of free publicity from his national exposure in gun mags and his internet columns.
Like I said many times (look it up): I am a big fan of JC, but when I hear an unvarnished canonization of an obviously fallible guy like me or you, I have a hard time not gagging.
Yes, Coop is a great voice for gunowners, but a bolt gun is not the answer to much of anything, except to a bolt gun lover, which I'm not. I've owned at least a dozen, including a beloved Steyr Mannlicher, and several Rem 700s but the technology is too archaic for me. On the other hand, I still like the Colt 45 Auto, but do not kid myself that there are other weapons far more adaptable to today. The real thing is, IMHO, the 45 Auto cartridge is the best D@MN auto pistol round ever invented, but for that we need to build a shrine to JMB, not JC. I knew the 45 Auto was the best long before JC shared that with me and you.
All of you bolt gunners, Steyr owners, love your weapons, if they are what you want, fine, I applaud you. But somebody who doesn't know much about rifles would do well to try lots of different types before settling on a particular solution on anybody's say-so, including the hallowed LTC Jeff Cooper. I think he would agree with that advice, too.