Scout Rifle Taxonomy

Why can't we invent new ones, is that verboten or blasphemy? I thought about an Indian Scout, based on an Ishapore Lee-Enfield action, much like my original BSA No5Mk1 Jungle Carbine, but in .308, with IER scope. (Or very much like the Gibbs' No7 faux carbine...)

Man, people sure do get worked up over the Scout concept. To use LtCol Cooper's own words, albeit on a different topic, "It's an interesting solution to a non-existent problem". I'm sure there are several ways to justify the gun, I've done the same thing to justify a couple of my own hare-brained centerfire creations.

Then again, I get a giggle out of somebody who refers to themself as "We", just like Queen Victoria did. Wonder how "We are not amused" would sound out of The Guru's mouth?
 
I like Cooper, but really his arrogance becomes grating, read in one of his "commentaries" in the above link that if you try to build a scout "You will pay more and get less". Let's see Jeff, your saying the best custom riflemakers in the world can't equal Steyr.

So the evolution of the rifle has ended and it was Steyr a company whose action few had even bothered with 5 years ago ended it. What drivel... Like I said I still like the guy but his obsession with a neat little .308 bolt action is getting really weird.

Regards, Blue Duck
 
Heresy, Infidels!!!

You will be lucky if lightning doesn't strike you!! In some eyes, Cooper is God!!

I like the man too. He has done great things with practical pistol shooting and I agree with a lot of his comments on the social problems. I do have a problem with his arrogance and his "Oh well, I've got mine!" attitude. The Cooper 80 1911 at $2750 along with the Cooper edition Steyr Scout have to be a couple of the biggest ripoffs in the gun industry. And can someone explain to me why a Steyr Scout is worth 4 times what a Savage Scout is worth? It sure can't be the trigger pull. And the .376 Dragoon? A 7 lb. rifle with the recoil of a .375 H&H? That must be fun. But I forgot, "recoil is only in the mind". Funny, that isn't where the bruise shows up.
 
Scouts had rifles long before Jeff Cooper came along. My Scout is a Winchester Trapper in 30/30 with the buckhorn sights. My custom mods are limited to a butt cuff with 5 extra rds.
 
I've got a Guide Gun, and I'm about to put a set of ghost rings on it. Does that count as a "lever scout"? ;)
 
T-Rex said:
I've got a Guide Gun, and I'm about to put a set of ghost rings on it. Does that count as a "lever scout"?
===============

That's what is known as a "stout scout." ;)
 
There is also the "sniper/scout", aka the "snout". I try to find the reference.

I think Gale McMillan said it best right here in TFL:

"With all due respect to Col Cooper It is my honest opinion that the scout rifle is a pistol experts idea of what a rifle should be. It differs from what a rifle expert would think..."

found at: http://204.235.96.21/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13846
 
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I think your criteria are off. If I'm not mistaken, the 200 kilo
spec as written in "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Tell the Truth" was
a misprint; instead, it should be 400 kilos.

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This comment is ONLY based on MY personal experience, so please don't beat me up... :)

I much prefer the forward scope mount position found on scout rifles, but only 0 magnification ones on my Bushmaster M4. It appears to me that the aforementioned setup lends it self quite well to closer range, very quick shots.

As for forward mounting a scope on my Savage bolt-action .308... ????? Why?

I think a forward scope mount would be great on an M1 carbine, or a 16" barreled FAL, etc... but again, closer ranges. All these lever action scout rifles sound like the ticket as well.

As I write this, I realize that I'm saying the same thing, in a roundabout, non-eloquent way that Gale McMillan said... Definitely a rifle setup for pistol shooters :)

Like I said, that's just my opinion, and probably not a very good one at that!!! ;)
 
Also check out "the lemming scout" on TFL

The comments are well taken and Col. Cooper needs a good roasting for sure.

I haven't shot the Steyr Scout but I've held a gray one and a black one. They sure don't look like $2700 worth to me. I thought a $99 Jungle Carbine would be similarly good. The IER scope is mainly to provide better balance when carrying as traditional scopes cover the balance point of the rifle. Oh yes, I think JC (not the divine one) has the *scout* set up to load from stripper clips :rolleyes: an idea that dates back to the late 19th century.

The one thing I value about this site (TFL) is the good sense most members show when confronted with BS.

If I was a paid writer and had a bully pulpit I would probably be as big an idiot as any of them. Remember, they have to come up with their own perspective different from the rest, and they have to have a new article every month.

Coop, by focusing on the Scout has made a lot of money for himself and Steyr Mannlicher. He, by being one of the first to hammer on the Colt 45, has sold a lot of that type pistol to many, many people, virtually resurrecting a dead pistol and making it one of the most popular. When I bought my first Colt they were so expensive you could buy two brand new S&W 44 Magnums for the price of one Colt 45 Auto. And nobody shot the 45 because it "kicked too hard and you couldn't hit anything with it any way!" Things have come a long way since I began to shoot. Now we're back to bolt action rifles and auto pistols from the dawn of smokeless powder. LOL

Guys: one last word. If you just want to shoot, buy a Glock. The Colt is for those who like it.
 
It is popular to bash Jeff Cooper. He says and does things which leave him open to harsh criticism. He is not perfect but I don't know of anyone else in the shooting community who is as well educated and articulate and not afraid to tackle tough issues. Gale McMillan and others have bashed Scout Rifles but they can't simply disagree, they have to make it personal.

I am not convinced the scout rifle is the last word or even an effective tool. The Steyr is far too expensive and Cooper seems to worship it and pooh pooh's any comments about its outrageous price. However, I like the concept and several features of the rifle. Unlike many who criticize the rifle, I am not a benchrest shooter or a sniper want to be. I am a hunter and one who genuinely likes to shoot rifles in a variety of situations. I love my 10/22 with a ghost ring. The scout is slight longer and a bit heavier and certainly hits a lot harder. It is also better balanced (more weight forward). Does this make it a rifle for a pistol shooter?

Many get bogged down in what it can't do as well as other rifles. What they miss is that a scout rifle is not all things to all people. It is a general rifle mainly designed and considered for hunting.

One of my favorite and most admired gun writers, the late Finn Aagaard, did not promote the scout concept. He reviewed several scouts favorably and owned a psueso-scout but mentioned two attributes of that rifle he liked: it never change zero and that the bolt could be manipulated without interference from the scope--nothing about length, forward mounted scope, etc. But he did seem to incorporate several elements of the concept on his rifles: Ching
Sling, reserve ghost ring sights, and a Clifton bi-pod on one rifle. He believed he could acquire a target as easily with a 2 1/2 X or 4 X scope mounted traditionally as with a scout scope.

I am waiting to see if Winchester or Ruger make their versions of the scout. I am not hopeful. I may at some point buy the Savage if not.
 
Sigh...

I've noticed for a long time that most people who bash Cooper don't actually have any substance to their comments, instead usually just say something to the effect of "I don't know much about what he said, but he's an idiot." Groan.

To use LtCol Cooper's own words, albeit on a different topic, "It's an interesting solution to a non-existent problem".

A self-admitted non-sequitor. Interesting.

I get a giggle out of somebody who refers to themself as "We"

He's old, and that's how he was taught to write. Yeesh.

if you try to build a scout "You will pay more and get less". Let's see Jeff, your saying the best custom riflemakers in the world can't equal Steyr.

Applied to most members of his intended audience, that's true. Of course a FEW people can truly do better, but most won't. Duh.

I said I still like the guy but his obsession with a neat little .308 bolt action is getting really weird.

What's really wierd is how so many people, upon the mention of Cooper, spout insults sans useful content.

I do have a problem with his arrogance and his "Oh well, I've got mine!" attitude.

Similarly, he has a problem with people's arrogance and their "I'm not sure what he's saying but I know more than him!" attitude.

And can someone explain to me why a Steyr Scout is worth 4 times what a Savage Scout is worth?

May have something to do with the Savage Scout having a high failure rate during a heavy-use rifle class, versus rare problems and excellent performance from the Steyr Scout.

And the .376 Dragoon?

Steyr's idea. Cooper can't figure that one out either.

Scouts had rifles long before Jeff Cooper came along.

That has little to do with a particular design, born of much research, which has been given a specific name and definition.

I think Gale McMillan said it best

I think Gale forgets that Cooper is also a rifle expert.

I haven't shot the Steyr Scout but I've held a gray one and a black one. They sure don't look like $2700 worth to me.

Oh, there's a useful opinion.

Coop, by focusing on the Scout has made a lot of money for himself and Steyr Mannlicher.

Cooper - as he has frequently pointed out - hasn't made a dime off the Steyr Scout. Steyr Mannlicher gives him nothing for the idea, except maybe a bit of publicity and a heaping pile of warm fuzzies.

Now we're back to bolt action rifles and auto pistols from the dawn of smokeless powder.

Shows the usefulness of those designs, and the relative pointlessness of most others.



C'mon guys, if you have something worth saying, say it. If you don't, don't. I've taken the time & resources to buy a Steyr Scout and spend a week with Cooper learning how to use it - maybe that makes me a bit biased, but from the experience I see a strong practical basis for the "scout rifle" concept, and I see very little against it. I'm always looking for a well-reasoned contrary view, and rarely find it regarding Cooper's ideas. Most of the criticism is just ignorant snide bashing. Grow up. Most of the respondents in this thread, and a lot of others I've seen do the same thing, disappoint me.

Let's return to the thread subject (scout rifle taxonomy) and useful commentary thereon, shall we?
 
If I'm not mistaken, the 200 kilo spec ... should be 400 kilos.

Ah. A useful and informed comment! Thank you. Considering the other comments, I sincerely appreciate that.
 
Cooper was critical of the Savage Scout long before the ill fated rifle class where several Savage Scouts experienced problems. If I recall correctly, there were three or four problems including a pin inside a bolt shearing and a scope mount coming loose (an easy fix). What Cooper didn't mention were the numerous failure to ignite problems with the Steyrs at that class as well as others--a problem the Savage did not have. The light strike problem with Steyr's is a long standing one and definitely affects reliability.

There are several "Orange" gunsite alumnae who think the Savage is a pretty fair gun. I have read their posts at another site (or have corresponded by e-mail) and they like the rifle. I understand the Steyr designers have also made favorable comments about the Savage.

Let's be frank, the Savage looks like a piece of junk which is perhaps its biggest drawback. It has a noodle fore-end which is only saved by pillar bedding and being free floated. That is why it probably is still such a good shooter. I don't know if any of you have handled one but for me it fits perfectly.
 
ctdonath,
Are you saying that opinions contrary to yours and JC's are of no value or consequence? This is still an open forum, isn't it? I have no opinions because I have no first-hand experience with the Scout concept. I just enjoy reading opinions, EVERYONES! This helps me to form my own opinions and then maybe I can decide for myself if JC's concept and ideas are the cat's meow or the ramblings of a self-important megalomaniac. Okay, I'm off the soap box now.

Patrick
 
"Scout Rifle - An optimized general-purpose rifle designed by Jeff Cooper". Bullcrap! Cooper and/or one rifle company has designed one rifle and called it something they have no copyright to. That sounds like the definition of the Winchester 94 to me and Jeff Cooper had nothing to do with its design. IMO Cooper is a very experienced gunwriter just like hundreds of others. I like to read his works. "That has little to do with the particular design,born of much research,which has been given a specific name and definition". Don't have a clue as to what you are saying here. My definition of a scout rifle is = A short barreled centerfired cal rifle with iron sights or forward mounted low powered scope that can easily be carried and quickly shouldered in bush terrain. And finally ..."Comments welcome" - Those are mine.
 
"Scout Rifle - An optimized general-purpose rifle designed by Jeff Cooper". Bullcrap! Cooper and/or one rifle company has designed one rifle and called it something they have no copyright to. That sounds like the definition of the Winchester 94 to me and Jeff Cooper had nothing to do with its design.

The Winchester is a good general purpose rifle, but it doesn't have the range, power, or accuracy of the Steyr Scout.
 
"Scout Rifle - An optimized general-purpose rifle designed by Jeff Cooper". Bullcrap! Cooper and/or one rifle company has designed one rifle and called it something they have no copyright to. That sounds like the definition of the Winchester 94 to me and Jeff Cooper had nothing to do with its design.

I think that's inaccurate, and unnecessarily harsh. The scout rifle (general purpose rifle) came out of a number of conferences where the discussion was centered around making a better rifle. "Better" can be defined as:

...conveniently portable, individually operated firearm, capable of striking a single decisive blow, on a live target of up to 400 kilos in weight, at any distance at which the operator can shoot with the precision necessary to place a shot in a vital area of the target.

The conference came up with a number of criteria for an ideal general purpose rifle, but the goal was to design an arm that was handy, quick to use, reliable, accurate, and powerful enough to take most everything but dangerous game (this includes wartime use). Overall, the rifle is a compromise, designed to do most things well, but nothing as well as rifle designed for a specific task (hence, "general purpose").

Now, you might not like some of the compromises that were made, but that doesn't invalidate the concept. And you should note that the Steyr Scout doesn't perfectly match the definition either, but it's Good Enough, and available Right Now (if at an extortionistic price).

With regard to the Winchester 94, if you mount a good sight on it (peep sight or forward-mounted low-power scope) and kludge around until you can use a sling without affecting the impact of the bullet, I think Cooper would call it a scout rifle (even if the 30-30 is underpowered compared to the .308 and 7mm-08).

There's no single "scout rifle" out there, it's simply a concept that you can draw from or ignore as you like.

And no, I don't own a Steyr Scout. I have an Oberndorf Mauser-98 that's in Scout configuration that I spent $300 for (Santa donated the scope last week) that qualifies as a Pseudo-scout due to weight, but I can tell you right now that it's the fastest, handiest rifle I've ever used. I never liked scopes as I could use a peep sight faster, but the low-mounted IER 2.5x is the fastest thing I've ever seen.

As to bias, here's a quote from Cooper on the concept that might get you to lighten up some:
Have you noticed in recent advertisements that the excellent Enfield No. 4 battle rifle is now available in the larger stores for $70 a crack! This is a very superior utility weapon, and you should snap it up while it lasts. If you have a safe place to store your weapons you ought to buy at least two of these pieces, together with a satisfactory supply of ammunition. As it comes out of the box, the piece will do ("for government work"), and if you want to play around with customizing it, you can turn it into a pretty nice approximation of a Scout. Take heed!

Sounds like any rifle that meets most of the criteria qualifies, rather than just expensive imports, doesn't it?

I was going to post the criteria for a "ideal" scout rifle as came out of the scout rifle conferences, but you can follow the link at the top of the topic if you have the interest.
 
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