scourge of the earth... those early custom guns... why no love ???

M

Magnum Wheel Man

New member
this is something I've noticed for a while, & really don't understand fully... a guy can post up a picture of a new custom revolver, & get nothing but oooo's & awwwes, & yet another can be posted of an older ( or antique ) gun that was customized long ago, & it's "man they wrecked that" or "who ever bubba'd that gun" should be"...

I personally have the opposite reaction when I see some of these old gems... ( BTW... I'm not talking about taking a pristine antique & chopping it up, I'm talking about a quality refinish, on a solid but ugly "old" gun today, or a gun that was customized long ago, often, & in the case of the thread below, to make the gun more suited to carry concealed )... I've actually run across several in my collecting some looked carried often & not shot much ( like my gun pictured ) & one I bought & parted with, that was shot to the point, that it was totally hammered ( barrel cut just the same )

case in point, is this thread here...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=544623

I'm guessing this gun was customized quite a while ago, these guns are available in stock form in pretty good numbers in conditions ranging from pretty crabby to looks unfired, so why, all the poo poo about a custom gun from the past, if the work was done well, when a new custom gun is considered great ???

BTW #2... if you look at the link, the 1st picture in my post, was the gun being talked about in the thread, the 2nd picture is a gun I own, I used it to re-qualify for my CCW license this last time ( I out shot about 1/2 the class shooting their new compact autos... the instructor was amazed it would even shoot, let alone well enough to out shoot a half dozen compact 9's & 380's :) ) that gun is now getting retired from regular "duty" & is getting a master blue, I have a set of original mother of pearl S&W medallion grips for that gun, since the medallions are gold, I'm gold plating the spur trigger & the hammer, & the side plate cover is getting gold filled engraving with "38 S&W" in an easy to read script, the cartridge the gun is chambered in... otherwise the gun was similar to the one in that thread, as all the original printing was on the barrel portion that was cut off, except for the serial... it will now be retired to BBQ & party use...

I expect I'll be condemned for making the changes to an ugly but solid, already altered antique... but I guess I have thick skin :o
 
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I stood silent as they teared it to pieces, not to be (so) contrarian.

But if I lived in the States, you bet I would have ponied the bucks for that snub. It has character.
 
Well, I'm not interested in any old gun for the sake of owning it only. But I'd snap up an old Colt Single Action that had been reworked such as described by Elmer Keith in his works. Cutom touches such as adjustable sights, reworked grip straps, etc.

Lay a custom Ruger Super Blackhawk or Blackhawk, or even a good Uberti in front of me at a good price, and I'll snap it up. Just so long as its still usuable and accurated.

Bob Wright
 
I hear this kind of thing a lot, mostly with milsurp rifles.

There is only one custom feature I find on some old handguns that I cannot stand, and that is the cutting off of the front of the trigger guard.

If you look at the period writing, you can find people who thought it was stupid, even back when it was popular. And, you will note that the factories never really thought it was a good idea, either.

Custom work (done well, mechanically) on a gun that today is rare and extra valuable because of its rarity is still foolish. Done when the gun was common and cheap as dirt, or nearly so, isn't. Its just another example of history.
 
I thought the same thing. Them boys knew what they were doing. My wife's father was a gunsmith / customizer. I (she) has a few of his rifles with custom stocks and a few re-blued and worked over hand guns. A couple make me cringe because I know what they would be worth if left alone, but hey, at the time they were $10 a pop and fun to play with. He sporterized a Garand that is pretty cool. Never seen that done before. A Stehr Mannlicker in 6.5x53R that Mr. Bell would have liked. He also played with wildcatting. an 8mm Gibb that took me a while to figure out how to form brass and work up a load. I guess I'm still having fun with them. I had a .44 mag Bisley Vaquero customized. 50 years from now is someone going to think I was a dumba**? Who cares? It is my favorite handgun. Shoots like a house afire.
 
A lot of barrels were cut when damage happened. No since to buy a whole new gun simply because you screwed the muzzle crown up with your cleaning rod, just pay the gunsmith a dollar to cut the barrel down an inch or so and reinstall the front sight.

until 1900, they werent making much in the way of snub nose revolvers, so if you wanted one. You had to make your own. Sure ive seen snub nose factory made before 1900 but normally the most powerful caliber youll see is 38 sw. SO if you needed more then that, you had to get a hacksaw out.

Alot of people after ww2 bought alot of surplus rifles and chopped the crap out of them to lighten them up for easy carry for recreational usage. Problem is, no one cares that it was done back then, because you could get one for 30 dollars in a catalog or hardware store.
Now if you sporterize one of those rifles and dont do it just a specific way, expect a lynch mob when you post a photo online of it.
 
I have a early fifties vintage Combat Masterpiece that was turned into a PPC gun sometime back in the day. While I wish that it hadn't altered, or at least the original parts had been kept with it.

But other than that, it is a great shooter.

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The gun pictured looked like a zip gun.
I think people are willing to pay for a gun worked on by a reputable name-say King's Gunworks, Pachmayr, Behlert, Clark, etc. with some evidence of provenance. And there are lots of no names who did superb work. But it's like finding a customized M1903, Griffin & Howe, Sedgely, yes. Then there's Bubba.
 
That particular gun was not what I would call a "custom" gun. There is no particular artistry involved in the modifications; Someone just cut the barrel back, cut a dovetail and installed a front sight off some modern rifle and made a pair of ill-fitting homemade grips.
 
There is only one custom feature I find on some old handguns that I cannot stand, and that is the cutting off of the front of the trigger guard.

If you look at the period writing, you can find people who thought it was stupid, even back when it was popular. And, you will note that the factories never really thought it was a good idea, either.
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That's interesting, Colt must have thought they were a good idea for a while since the "Fitz Special" was developed by John Henry Fitzgerald when he worked for Colt and the modification was an option that you could order on your new gun right from the factory.


As far as old customs are concerned, I'm a fan and have owned many from cut down revolvers and autos to competition guns. I have an appreciation for custom gunsmithing that is well done, regardless of the era, but vintage work in particular. It is amazing what some of those guys were doing back in the day. I recently sold an Austin Behlert customized Colt Government Model that had been cut down to slightly smaller than CCO size, the quality of the work and the attention to detail was truly impressive. I don't know that there is a gunsmith around today that could replicate that gun.



I have a early fifties vintage Combat Masterpiece that was turned into a PPC gun sometime back in the day. While I wish that it hadn't altered, or at least the original parts had been kept with it.
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Old PPC guns are some of the great values out there for fun range and plinking use. They are accurate, have incredible DA triggers, and can be had for reasonable prices. Sure, a lot of them have had a bazillion rounds through them but lead target loads aren't hard on guns and a lot of the wear you see on them is cosmetic.

A couple of years ago I picked up a S&W 10-6 PPC project gun that someone never finished and had a gunsmith friend rework it into a home defense revolver for my wife. It turned out great, terrific action and just enough weight that recoil is not an issue, she is very recoil shy.
This is what it looked like before and what it looks like now-

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One man's customized is another man's butchered.

Everyone will have his own opinion.

Everyone is free to as he pleases with his guns.

I think most would agree that modifying a rare, antique or collectible piece in unwise and unfortunate. Once modifications have been made, the horse has fled the barn and there's no harm in doing more work on it.

I went to a local estate sale about 10 years ago. A man had passed and the family was selling his guns. He had lived to be 92, and had 110 guns that were being sold. Apparently the gentleman spent his retirement years with a file and hammer practicing his gunsmithing skills. Every single one of those guns had been worked on...or should I say worked over. Nice guns. M92 Winchesters, military Colt 1911s, SAAs, all of them ruined by him hammering and filing on them. I cried. In most cases I couldn't even figure out what the hell he was trying to accomplish. It looked like he would grind on a gun just to do it with no real purpose in mind.

Of course this did not deter the crazy auction bidders one whit. All the guns sold for fabulous amounts. I stood with mouth agape watching the hammer fall at outrageous final prices given the horrible condition of the guns.

It breaks my heart when a new member on the S&W Forum asks what his new revolver his worth and it's a butchered Victory Model. I want to tell him it's ruined, it's worth nothing and I wouldn't take such a gun as a gift. But he's so proud of it, and he just paid $400 for it. There's a dealer who is on the local gun show circuit. He's been dragging around a cut down Victory for several years. You know, 2" barrel and ejector lug gone, chrome finish (including hammer and trigger), and the plastic stags just to complete the ensemble. He's started out asking $600 for it. After the first year he reduced the price to $500. I make it a point to stop at his table at each show to laugh at the gun. He deserves this as he's trying to rip off some unknowing buyer.

A truly custom gun is another matter. Well done work to personalize a gun to the owner's needs or tastes is far different from the butchered gun. Well, to most people anyway. Some folks hate engraving, even when well done and think any gun so embellished is ruined beyond repair. You may love that bull barrel Model 10 with the heavy rib but that's a tough gun to sell as few others will appreciate it the way you do.

I have my own preferences. I agree with the earlier post on cutting trigger guards on DA revolvers. This was a monumentally stupid idea in the 1930s when that idiot Fitzgerald started doing it and it's a monumentally stupid idea today. I am not crazy about "tactical" appendages on 1911s. I hate extended controls as ugly and bulky and those forward grooves cut in the slide are truly hideous.

I "sporterized" some military rifles in my youth. No more. I had a couple handguns engraved to suit me. I will never try to sell them. They will be in the auction my wife will host someday and I'm sure the crazy bidders will reward her handsomely for them. I have personalized many of my pistols with stocks, different triggers, etc., but nothing really strange or anything that can't be returned to original condition.
 
I have replaced the triggers on a number of my N frame S&Ws with smooth ones. The original grooved triggers are in a box labeled with the gun's serial for later restoration if desired.

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I like the look of the lanyard loop on a 1911. No idea why, I just do. I have swapped the mainspring housing on several of my 1911s to have the loop. The original parts have been retained for restoration to original configuration. Notice the pistol wears ivory stocks. I have a weakness for ivory and many of my pistols are so fitted. I think many if not most shooters would find ivory a valuable addition and if not they are easily swapped out.

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I bought this Government Model new in 1973. In 1975 I added the S&W sights (that's what we did back then) and the ivory stocks (thus beginning my addiction to elephant tooth). In 2012 I had it engraved. If I wanted to sell this gun I would have a very hard time finding someone who agreed with me in appreciating it's configuration and appearance. Custom guns usually cannot be sold for anything near what it cost to build them.

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Same thing here (this is the revolver forum, after all). I like it. Maybe nobody else does. You make a custom gun to suit yourself because you might be alone in loving it.

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That's interesting, Colt must have thought they were a good idea for a while since the "Fitz Special" was developed by John Henry Fitzgerald when he worked for Colt and the modification was an option that you could order on your new gun right from the factory.
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I think the key to this statement is "for a while". And that it could be had as a special order, and not a production feature.

back in those days, the factories would almost literally make anything you wanted, for a small (or not so small) premium.

I'm fairly sure the thinking (on some people's parts, anyway) would have been essentially "if it's stupid, but we can make a profit on it, it's not stupid".
 
Collectors think differently about guns than shootists.
One sees value in them as collector pieces, and the other values them as tools.
Different strokes......
It gives a distinct advantage to the shooters - being able to buy some mighty fine stuff, at very reasonable prices, that collectors wouldn't be interested in.
 
That's interesting, Colt must have thought they were a good idea for a while since the "Fitz Special" was developed by John Henry Fitzgerald when he worked for Colt and the modification was an option that you could order on your new gun right from the factory.
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Never equate "popular" with "smart."
 
A couple of years ago I picked up a S&W 10-6 PPC project gun that someone never finished and had a gunsmith friend rework it into a home defense revolver for my wife. It turned out great, terrific action and just enough weight that recoil is not an issue, she is very recoil shy.
This is what it looked like before and what it looks like now-
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And this gun personifies "custom," because there is artistry and skill involved.
 
I went to a local estate sale about 10 years ago. A man had passed and the family was selling his guns. He had lived to be 92, and had 110 guns that were being sold. Apparently the gentleman spent his retirement years with a file and hammer practicing his gunsmithing skills. Every single one of those guns had been worked on...or should I say worked over. Nice guns. M92 Winchesters, military Colt 1911s, SAAs, all of them ruined by him hammering and filing on them. I cried. In most cases I couldn't even figure out what the hell he was trying to accomplish. It looked like he would grind on a gun just to do it with no real purpose in mind.
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And I had a nearly identical experience, also 10 years ago, when I was requested to handle the disposal of a very large collection of firearms by the widow of a deceased gentleman.

Only it wasn't limited to relatively common guns; Henrys, prototype post Civil War experimental cartridge conversions, you name it, were all involved.:(
 
Collectors think differently about guns than shootists.
One sees value in them as collector pieces, and the other values them as tools.
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And you are 110% correct. I have often stated that guns were tools at one time to be used for their intended purposes. Now, we live in an era of "Collectormania," and it's getting to the point where some people will buy a new gun, then change their mind about shooting it, because it may be discontinued in a couple years and become a "collector's item."

Some of this I blame on the gun manufacturers themselves, who do limited runs of a particular type of gun, then discontinue.

Case in point: I have a Smith & Wesson Model 940 3" that I love to shoot. Unfortunately, S&W only made the gun for two years, so now it's a "collector's item.":mad:

However, regarding the chopped Second Model Smith, I still say the gun shows no artistry, and was, in essence a chop job. Maybe the guy that did it liked the way it looked, which I have no problem with, but it's certainly no "custom" in the classic sense.
 
Alot of people after ww2 bought alot of surplus rifles and chopped the crap out of them to lighten them up for easy carry for recreational usage. Problem is, no one cares that it was done back then, because you could get one for 30 dollars in a catalog or hardware store.
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In many cases, a lot less than that.

I remember reading an interview with Bill Rogers who founded Springfield Sporters in PA. ( And I have seen what he was talking about.)

He said that, at the time he built his warehouse, Carcano bayonets were cheaper than re-bar, so he used them instead of re-bar when he poured his concrete steps.

The last time I was there (ca. 1981-82), the steps had worn down pretty good from all the foot traffic at his place, and you could actually see the bayonets.

Try and find a Carcano bayonet now for less that $50-75.00+.
 
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