science or myth behind barrel break in ???

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Using copper solvent is part of CLEANING. How do you expect to clean the copper out without solvent? Using copper solvent is a huge part of cleaning and therefore, part of barrel 'break in'
No one said not to use copper solvent. It wasn't mentioned because it's such an obvious step in cleaning and should be assumed that it's needed if you're cleaning copper/jacket material from a bore.

Really? So, for those who put the instructions in, they tell you exactly to fire one shot and clean, two shots and clean and so on and they NEVER tell you what to clean it with?

I don't buy it. If they wanted you to do copper cleaner they would say so, they don't and ergo its bogus.

RR said there was no break in needed in their barrels.

I have a number of Mil surplus and I don't know how many rounds through them (some are pretty well shot) and amazingly little copper showed up.

Urban myth.
 
The world's premier bench rest shooter belittled the idea.

I’ve heard / read that often. I figure it’s because they start with hand lapped, precision, air gauged bores to begin with. Hand lapping “breaks in” the bore before you even receive it. Therefore, us commoners that can’t afford hand lapped barrels have to do what we can to attempt to get those results. Or, maybe I’m wrong?
 
James K said:
Up to recent times, it was recommended by the manufacturer that a new car engine be "broken in" by not exceeding 50 mph for the first 1000-2000 miles. After that, the break-in oil was drained, along with whatever crud and bits of steel might have been in the engine from the factory, and replaced with the recommended oil, and the car could be driven normally.

Many manufacturers still (claim to) use a special oil and the owners manuals still prescribe a break-in period.

Bart B said:
I find it interesting that some of the match winning, record setting competitors don't break in their new barrels. 'Tis also interesting that others of the same ilk break in their barrels with all sorts of procedures. All the barrels come from the same places made to the same specs.

This has to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt.

Readers should be able to figure out what.

Tells me that competition quality barrels costing more than most folks entire guns and which are hand-lapped to as near perfection as possible may or may not reflect the condition or procedures necessary on an off-the-shelf rifle.;)
 
I think from a strict scientific standpoint, what is being done during a so-called "break-in" should really have little to no effect. That would just be my judgement with no real testing whatsoever. Just observation on what is going on.

I don't think anyone's ever did any kind of consistent test with multiple barrels, have they? With this whole break in "myth" going on, you'd think someone would question it enough to perform a test. Just kind of interesting that no one's bothered, considering all of the expensive gun-related shenanigans people get into on youtube and the like.
 
New barrels all have imperfection in them. I have a bore scope and before I take a new rifle out the door I inspect the bore. I've rejected a couple new rifles from a very popular brand. And both times the dealer was very surprised that the quality of the barrels were so poor. He totally understood why I wouldn't accept those rifles. What it looked like was that chips for the deep drill didn't get flushed out and there were huge gouges in the bore. Only way to take those marks out was to make it a larger caliber.
I have yet to find a bad custom barrel. Having said that the bore scope does show the minor imperfections that are a result of the maching process. The bore scope tells me that the break in process is necessary before even firing the rifle. After firing a round I then can see where the copper is being left. After cleaning the bore another inspection shows if I really did get the bore clean.
When you use the bore scope it brings you up to a whole new level of firearm maintenance. It allows you to inspect the chamber, neck, throat.leade, and the. Inside of the crown. On the removal of stubborn copper I have discovered that sweets is the only one. That has the strength to remove it. Carbon is anther culprit that gets packed into the root corner of the rifling, it sometimes takes JB bore paste to get it out.
As far as when barrel break in started, I started in the early 80's and I got my bore scope in 92 at the shot show. That bore scope is one of the best investments that I ever made. It is the most used tools in my gun room. I would be lost now if it was there for me
 
I've never performed a barrel break in. I simply doubt there is any real science behind it, just theory. Don't mean to tick anybody off, just what I believe. Except for the AK's, I clean my barrels after every shooting session. I don't clean the 700 .308 as thoroughly as others as it seems to prefer a slightly fouled bore to shoot it's best.
 
Just to touch on a point that was made here about cars and such not needing a break in. Many car company's,Boat motors,motorcycles and yes gun company's still do post a break in period with there stuff. The barrel break in theory is like the Chicken and the Egg. It will never be settled. Does it make your rifle more accurate- That one is in the air. Does it make your rifle easier to clean- That is a definite YES. So if for no other reason, that one is good enough for me.
Always wondered about those that say their gun shoots better with some fouling in it, or that it takes about 10 to 15 shots to get it back to accurate again. Are those people that did not break in barrels ?. I break all mine in and after a very good cleaning with in 3 maybe 4 shots I am dead right back on. Is there a connection?. Just a thought here.

The other big one for me is MOA. Now any rifle that will not hold Sub MOA out to 300 yards is not acceptable at all. Now I am speaking from hand loads only, as all 9 of my rifles have never seen a purchased load. So Accuracy to one might not be Accuracy to another. And I am not talking target rifles only here. I have 2 of my 9 that are just plain jane hunting rifles and 6 are just heavy barrel. All shoot sub MOA out to 300 yards.
 
I'd still question the easier to clean as well... maybe if your barrel falls in a small window of having some loose rough chips, on an otherwise perfect barrel ( for example ) but if the bore is "rough" I can't see how any metal softer than the barrel material is going to make any difference, with the few shots fired ( & strokes of a bore brush ) that are the "norm" for break in...

BTW... I've never "broke in" a barrel... yet I've had a very easy time cleaning, all of my barrels, since I adopted the wet patch of Kroil, followed by a dry patch... & even this could end up being a "myth" since likely if your barrel was "good" to start with, it should clean easily after shooting anyway :confused:
 
I clean my guns with Eezox and nothing else. Usually a wet patch and let it sit, one pass with the brush, another wet patch and a dry patch, then another wet to see if it comes out clean. Repeat until clean. Normally, no matter how many shots since cleaning, there is no repeat.

Before hunting season last year, I worked up a new load in my Encore Pro Hunter handgun in 7mm-08, using Barnes TTSX and Benchmark.

After about a dozen shots, the barrel looks like I just cleaned it. You can still see reflections in the steel and barely a few specks of powder residue.

That gun has had almost nothing through it but TTSX. I used that copper solvent on it too. There was no blue.
 
I have a bore-scope in the shop and have watched what happens while breaking in a barrel. I have also noted that some barrels benefit more from a careful break-in than others.

The fact that a shooter from yesteryear says that barrel break-in is unnecessary and tells a little story to back up his ignorance up means - just that.

I have a Mosin-Nagant that looks "all nice and shiny" if you peek down the bore. The bore-scope though reveals what looks a lot like sewer pipe, currently in use. Peeking down the bore tells you very little if anything about the actual condition of a rifle bore except in very extreme cases. - It does though serve to make shooters who do not want to clean the gun properly feel better about their negligence.

"All I do is run a patch wet with gun oil down the bore every 200 rounds, and when I peek down the bore, it looks all shiny like new!"

Duh.

My most accurate rifle is a heavy-barreled Savage in .243 Winchester. When I first got the gun and bore-scoped the barrel I almost sent it back, because chatter from the button-rifling made it look like corrugated iron.



Click image to see it larger

But I kept it, and gave it a thorough break-in, removing copper and carbon every shot for twenty rounds, then every 5 shots for twenty, then every ten shots for forty - and every twenty rounds thereafter.

Five round, 1/2" groups from this gun are now pretty much the norm. - It didn't start off that way, but after break-in it has been consistently accurate.

Shooters who brag about how accurate their gun is without barrel break in have no way of knowing how much MORE accurate it might have been if treated properly.

On the other hand, my Browning BLR did not really benefit much from break-in... Here's why:



It started off as smooth as a baby's bottom, so just keeping it reasonably clean was the only attention it required. That's the good news... The bad news is that the BLR's accuracy did not improve as more rounds went through it.

Note that a little roughness in the bore, as in the case with my Savage, can be conducive to accuracy.

There was a famous case which will illustrate how this happens. In the 1960's Rolls-Royce purchased rights to manufacture an automatic transmission design from General Motors. The Rolls-Royce engineers noted that one of parts had a generous tolerance for roughness and decided to make that part better, smoother than GM specified.

The transmission they built would not work properly though, and after consulting with GM they discovered that the roughness on that part actually made it operate much more smoothly.

Aircraft manufacturers have noted that in many situations, an ultra-smooth skin on the fuselage and wings will actually introduce drag. Apparently the air collects in imperfections on the metal so that the slipstream rides upon air instead of metal, thus reducing drag.

If you think about it, the bullet touches a lot less metal while riding through the 'corrugated' bore of my tack-driver Savage than it does in the bore of my smooth as a baby's butt BLR, which has never shot into less than two inches.

The extreme, inconsistent roughness of my sewer-pipe Mosin though is not conducive to accuracy. - The thing shoots into 4" at 100 yards - on a good day if I hold my mouth just right.

Just sayin'...
 
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Some time ago, I started shooting rifles.

Being an extreme shooting enthusiast (;):D) I shot. A lot. And I cleaned. And like a lot of other shooters, I studied and pondered ways to get the most accuracy out of any rifle.

I put tens of thousands of rounds down the bores of various rifles. I cleaned, and I studied.

I started studying benchrest shooters; their loading techniques, equipment and shooting skills. And with each rifle and caliber I shot, I did a break-in procedure. And yes, some group improvement was observed.

Then I was appointed as the "precision marksman" for my department (read as: shooter, sniper, etc.). My interest in utmost precision went from nice-to-have and "I want to do this" to "This is a requirement" and "No room for error" in a hurry. And my study of cleaning and break in procedures progressed as well.

Then came two things in relatively short order that changed my entire approach.

The first was during a visit of some friends who live in Phoenix, AZ. I had the opportunity to meet the folks, and tour the facility where McMillan makes stocks and where they made precision rifles before they sold the rifle division off. As a part of that tour, I read the article from Gale McMillan--the founder of the company--about break in.

On the wall of the office, there is a benchrest target. I forget the caliber used--but it was shot by Gale McMillan, and did set the world record for benchrest shooting at 100 yards. Five shots into a group that measured .002 inches.

The next thing that happened was my new precision duty rifle. Blueprinted Remington 700 in .308, with a Bartlein 1:11.25 single point cut rifled barrel.

I did NOT do a break in on that rifle.

It has a little above 500 rounds logged through the barrel, and will still shoot 0.25 groups at 100 yards.

Bottom line: Don't shoot your rifle until it's hot.
Use a bore guide.
Use properly sized patches.
Use a good coated cleaning rod.

And don't worry about break in. It will get there on its own.
 
The fact that a shooter from yesteryear says that barrel break-in is unnecessary and tells a little story to back up his ignorance up means - just that.

Sir, with all due respect, see my post above. When you can shoot a world record group with a rifle that you built yourself, then maybe you can claim that Mr. McMillan was ignorant. I know that I sure won't.
 
The fact that a shooter from yesteryear says that barrel break-in is unnecessary and tells a little story to back up his ignorance up means - just that.

On the other hand, my Browning BLR did not really benefit much from break-in... Here's why: It started off as smooth as a baby's bottom, so just keeping it reasonably clean was the only attention it required.
The first part shows ignorance of its author.

The second part does the same thing. Move a bore scope over a baby's bottom and it'll reveal the skin's a lot rougher than most any bore surface. Measure its microinch spread and you'll see how much. Be carefull the bore scope's lens doesn't get smudged slipping into that hole in the middle of it.

The above aside, if a bore's so rough from the tools used to rifle it, I don't think anybody is "breaking it in" by making it smoother They're finishing it the way it should have been in the first place. But it ends up with larger diameters than before; metal's been removed.
 
Of course McMillan was ignorant to make a blanket statement like that. His attitude is provincial at best, or perhaps designed to throw competitors off the track of success - at worst.

Not all rifle barrels are generic, they tend to vary even coming from the same manufacturer.

Knowledge is not generic or automatic. The fellow can be quite knowledgeable and successful in a number of areas - but this in no ways implies universal knowledge-ability or omniscience.

Perhaps his barrels were smooth enough so that break-in would have little or no effect. - But we'll never know since he apparently did not clean his barrels while breaking them in.
 
Name-calling does not change the facts. - Some barrels benefit more from break-in than others.

Look up the word "ignorance" and its proper usage.

Used properly it is descriptive, not an insult at all.
 
I think it's funny that even after the quotes of Gale McMillan who posted them on this forum himself, people are still defending the barrel break in process. Gale personally knew the guy who started all this nonsense and he admitted to him it was all a ploy, as well as the second quote with him discrediting the barrel break in process saying it's ridiculous to think a brass bore brush will improve a barrel more than the factory can.

The guy was probably one of the top 3 people in the industry, if not the top, and knew more on the subject than all of us combined. Not only did he have a first hand encounter with the guy who started all this BS, but he knew him very well and actually trained the guy himself. Continuing to support the barrel break in process is like saying snake oil works to cure all your ailments. Sure it's just one guys opinion, but he was an industry expert, maybe the top industry expert of his time. His opinion holds a lot more weight than some Joe Schmo on the internet or in a gun mag who writes an article about barrel break in's.

Just in case anyone missed it here it is again, and if you don't know who Gale McMillan is, do a little research.


http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12582&highlight=break+in

Gale McMillan said:
The break in fad was started by a fellow I helped get started in the barrel business . He started putting a set of break in instructions in ever barrel he shipped. One came into the shop to be installed and I read it and the next time I saw him I asked him What was with this break in crap?. His answer was Mac, My share of the market is about 700 barrels a year. I cater to the target crowd and they shoot a barrel about 3000 rounds before they change it. If each one uses up 100 rounds of each barrel breaking it in you can figure out how many more barrels I will get to make each year. If you will stop and think that the barrel doesn't know whether you are cleaning it every shot or every 5 shots and if you are removing all foreign material that has been deposited in it since the last time you cleaned it what more can you do? When I ship a barrel I send a recommendation with it that you clean it ever chance you get with a brass brush pushed through it at least 12 times with a good solvent and followed by two and only 2 soft patches. This means if you are a bench rest shooter you clean ever 7 or 8 rounds . If you are a high power shooter you clean it when you come off the line after 20 rounds. If you follow the fad of cleaning every shot for X amount and every 2 shots for X amount and so on the only thing you are accomplishing is shortening the life of the barrel by the amount of rounds you shot during this process. I always say Monkey see Monkey do, now I will wait on the flames but before you write them, Please include what you think is happening inside your barrel during break in that is worth the expense and time you are spending during break in

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60102

Gale McMillan said:
I will make one last post on this subject and appeal to logic on this subject I think it is the height of arrogance to believe a novice can improve a barrel
using a cleaning rod more than that a barrel maker can do with 30 years of experience and a * million dollars in equipment . The barrel is a relatively
precise bit of machining and to imagine that it can be improved on with a bit of abrasive smeared on a patch or embedded in a bullet. The surface finish
of a barrel is a delicate thing with more of them being ruined with a cleaning rod in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use one. I would
never in a million years buy a used rifle now because you well may buy one that has been improved. First give a little thought to what you think you
are accomplishing with any of the break in methods. Do you really believe that if what you are doing would help a barrel that the barrel maker wouldn't
have already done it. The best marketing advantage he can have is for his barrels to out perform his competitors! Of coarse he is happy to see you
poking things in your barrel . Its only going to improve his sales. Get real!!!! I am not saying the following to brag because the record speak for it' self
McMillan barrels won the gold at 4 straight Olympics. Won the Leach Cup eight years running. Had more barrels in the Wimbledon shoot off every year
for 4 straight yearsthan any other make. Set the national 1000 yard record 17 times in one year. Held 7 world records at the same time in the NBRSA .
Won the national silhouette matches 5 straight times and set 3 world records while doing that . Shot the only two 6400 scores in the history of small
bore and holds a 100 yard world record that will stand for ever at .009 of one inch. All with barrels the shooter didn't have to improve on by breaking
them in.
 
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A friend of mine used to reload ammo and test bullets for accuracy; professionally, some decades ago. He wore out a lot of barrels of all types and calibers. Included precision ones used in rail guns and match rifles as well as commercial sporting and military arsenal ones. Tried some break in procedures that some folks though was the best thing to do.

Best quality barrels showed no difference in accuracy with some "broken in" and others not. Most commercial and arsenal barrels showed the same thing; but a few were so rough that they shot most accurate by filling in the rough parts with copper fouling than smoothing them up making their inner diameters larger.
 
DragLine--Do you believe everything he post's?. First we are assuming he makes the best barrels( large assumption ). Second we are putting all this faith in his one word.
When I see top shooters doing barrel break in-That to me means something,alot more than the word of Mr Mc Millan.

Now I have never and will never tell some one how to break in their barrel and to me it does not matter if they do or don't. Each to their own is what it is.
 
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without trying to get in a peeing match... to someone with a bore scope... it would be nice to see some pictures before, a couple at various stages during, with a round count & after break in, to show that copper bullets can smooth out rifling imperfections...

otherwise I have a hard time believing a hand full of copper bullets & a few passes with a brush would remove the "waves" visible in the bore pictures posted previously
 
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