School me on the Luger

There is a .22 LR pistol that feels like, handles like, and resembles the Luger; it is called (ready for this?) the Ruger. (Obviously a third-world ripoff of some kind!)

Seriously, the Luger's toggle action looks "cool", but it gave the designers of those copies fits, trying to get things balanced just right, a much more complex problem than just a simple bolt or slide.

With all the much better guns available today, I doubt very much there would be any significant market for even a copy of an ancient design. But if anyone can get firm orders with cash and a couple of million bucks in startup money, several gun companies might be interested.

Jim
 
There is a .22 LR pistol that feels like, handles like, and resembles the Luger; it is called (ready for this?) the Ruger. (Obviously a third-world ripoff of some kind!)
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Are you referring to the Mark 3 made by Ruger? http://www.ruger.com/mobile/products/10104.html
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I'd say the MK III is closer to a Nambu than a Luger actually.

Actually, after thinking about my gut reaction, I looked this up and it does indeed seem to indicate that Bill Ruger based the MK I/II/III off of the Nambu Type 14. :D

"It has been reported that even the famed firearms maker and inventor William B. Ruger acquired a Type 14 pistol from a returning WWII Marine after the war. Mr. Ruger duplicated the Nambu design in his garage but did not market the pistol. Instead, the rear cocking device as well as the silhouette of the Nambu was incorporated into one of the most popular .22 semi-automatic pistols to ever enter the US firearms market, when in 1949 the Ruger Standard and later the Mark I, II, and III pistols were sold to the U.S. public."

http://ai4fr.com/main/page_militaria__collectibles_japan_jap_nambu.html
 
James, you really need to use the little smiley faces! ;):D:rolleyes:

Lots of people over the years have claimed Ruger "copied" the Luger, or the Nambu. As far as I know, Ruger never said, and he is long years in a place where we cannot ask him now.

Firearms are one of those things where there is a lot of "form follows function", and there are a great many guns that are VERY similar to other guns in one or more aspects.

Sometimes this is intentional, sometimes it is just serendipity. Unless the designer(s) states they "copied" or "were inspired by" they all the speculation is only just that. There is NO proof.

There are also cases of the opposite, where the designer states he did no copy (proof?) and yet the appearance is so similar people doubt the truth of the designer's claim. Avtomat Kalashnikov and the German Sturmgewehr come to mind.

Back to Ruger, I have seen a Ruger ad, from BEFORE they began making firearms. It is for a hand drill. The grip of the hand drill in the ad is identical in appearance to the grip of the Mark I .22 pistol.

Seriously, the Luger's toggle action looks "cool", but it gave the designers of those copies fits, trying to get things balanced just right, a much more complex problem than just a simple bolt or slide.
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It may have given them fits, but it has been done.


If you are looking for a .22LR Luger, this is probably your best bet. They are long out of production, but sill can be found, although the price is climbing, and judging from the $425 I saw as the asking price for one at the last gun show I went to, its moving above what is "affordable" for a "novelty gun".

Blow back action, the toggle is for style, not function (although it does function). Made by Stoeger, and so, legally a "Luger". Its not a direct copy of the P.08 design, only similar in style. But it IS a "Luger".;)
 
The toggle link copies (whether legally "Lugers" or not, were not especially well made and were often unreliable. I worked on a bunch of them, of several makes, and none were anywhere near as well made as a Ruger or a Browning (or, for that matter, a Colt Woodsman or High Standard).

Did Ruger "copy" the Luger? In its general shape, I can't see much room for doubt. Wilson says that Ruger's design "had a profile...like the German Luger, which appealed immensely to Sturm's aesthetic philosophy." So did Sturm like the Ruger design, or did he influence it? We will probably never know, but I suspect the latter, especially in the shape of the bottom of the grip, which the earliest prototype shows to be like the Woodsman or High Standard.

As to the internal design, it is pretty clear that Ruger's inspiration was the Colt Woodsman. The Ruger is essentially a Woodsman modified to use new materials and production methods, while being less costly to make. In fact, the first Ruger prototype had a profile a lot like the Woodsman and used Colt magazines.

(The pictures of the hand drill grip I have seen show significant differences from the Ruger pistol, notably at the bottom of the grip, which has an angle more like the Woodsman and does not have the front "bulge" typical of the German Luger (not the Swiss) and the production Ruger.)

The gun that did not influence the Ruger was the Nambu, which is different both inside and outside. Long after the Ruger automatic was in production, Ruger had his model shop make up two prototype pistols that looked like the Baby Nambu, but were in .22 caliber and straight blowback, unlike the Nambu, which is a locked breech pistol.

Jim
 
The Ruger is essentially a Woodsman modified to use new materials and production methods,
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If we can agree that going from an open slide (Woodsman) to a bolt in a tube (Ruger) is covered under "new materials and production methods" I will accept that.

Unless/until someone comes up with something written in or by Bill Ruger's hand, saying he was inspired by A or B or XYZ, its all speculation anyway.

Tell you what, when I get to the Happy Hunting Ground, I'll ask him. Right before I slap him for the Blackahwk rear sight windage screw! :D
 
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