Scenario:

OhioLS - very similar to what I'd discussed about KCShooter's post. Money clip or wallet is used as a distraction whilst you draw. I'd envisioned him standing at or near the table with no downrange liabilities behind him and firing upwards from a seated position and moving after the 2nd rapid shot. Your tactic reverses it.

Lurper - I typically try to sit close to doors in restaurants for this very reason - to exit if something goes sour (being unarmed in CA is the major part of it). If the BG is preoccupied with sticking-up the cashier(s) and controlling the cooking staff, he hardly has much time to watch people leaving quietly out the far door. If his situational awareness is that good, then scratch your response of line up the sights c.o.m. and fire until the threat is removed too.

As a side note, I'm not advocating that everyone flee out the door. It is one option that can be used. If you remain, you certainly put yourself in extreme danger. I'd rather engage the BG outdoors if I have to, than in the close confines of a crowded eatery where I have no real cover.

Revance said:
I think I would have a very difficult time shooting someone in the back without giving them the opportunity to drop their weapon.
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Congratulations, you're a certified "Good Guy". You have a sense of fair play and justice, which is a good thing. The down side is that this is real life and too many unpredictable thing can happen. We do not have scriptwriters to make a happy ending. A suspect can whip around and fire a weapon in about 0.7 seconds which is faster than most of us can react.

In such a situation where it's obvious that he is illegally using a weapon to threaten lives, no warning need be given (in most states AFAIK) before you neutralize him. Doing so only introduces more variables (will he surrender? Shoot the cashier? Turn & Fire? Try to run?) to the situation making it harder to control. Hitting him before he can react puts him at a serious disadvantage.

I used to think that it was "only fair" to give the person a chance to stop, however if they have a gun or someone is in real immediate danger, the BG gets no warning -- he has already displayed his contempt of our laws and is willing to violate the most sacred of them against committing murder.
 
I always carry a money clip weak side with a ten ones and a twenty on top. It looks like a big stash but it ain't. It's totally for a throw away distraction. My wallet is strong side. My carry is right next to it in a IWB open top. The BG can have the $30 and I will give him 5 or 16 pieces of lead jacketed in copper to boot depending on what I carry that day. I can still hear him saying give me all your valuables. Copper prices are high and I AIM to please.

Godbless.....
 
Quote:
The guy in question never did fire a shot during the 'heist', but at the time, you don't know this...

1. How could you NOT know this?
2. How do you get that white box to surround quotes?
 
revance,
We are all noobs here. I doubt anyone has multiple gun battles behind them to be able to predict how a puke will respond. No argument taken, you point were very well articulated. I don;t make my comments out of hype or testosterone, I take my responsibility to CCW very very seriously.

I never said I agree with all the points my instructor said, but it did make me think. It made me think why give the puke a break and allow the situation to get worse because I wanted to give him a break, or because I thought I could control the situation. How can we feel the perp will act rationally?


but I think I would have a very difficult time shooting someone in the back without giving them the opportunity to drop their weapon
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I agree, no one said it would be easy. I am not saying I would never warn, but if he has a gun pointed at someone, or a knife at someones throat, I seriously doubt I would give a warning-why should I? Just so I can see if he will cooperate. I dont care if he will cooperate.


I understand that giving them that opportunity provides a window of time for them to do something bad. However, I would think the odds are pretty small. I think most people are smart enough to interpret "DROP YOUR WEAPON!"
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I would disagree. If he were that smart he wouldn't be committing a crime and threatening someone's life with a weapon. These gang banger life criminals are very trigger happy and have no regard for their own life or the life of others. And they are not scared of jail time.


On the other hand, getting involved in any way other than dropping them without warning puts others at risk. That is a risk for the LEOs to take, not us.
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I disagree again. With my training and equipment, I feel obligated to keep other innocent people from getting injured or killed, if I can stop it. LEO's don't normally stop a crime, they investigate the crime that has already occurred. Others can crawl to a back door and call 911 while some innocent young girl is getting killed after they had multiple opportunities to take the guy out; that is their call. Could you really imagine crawling away (as so many on this site advocate) then hear a young innocent girl get murdered in cold blood, and you could have done something to stop it? To each his own. I honestly don't think I could live with myself. If my daughter worked at that store, I would hope there is a real man there to stop the puke, and not just leave it to the 'chance' that the puke won't kill anyone this time, while they wait on LEOs.

There are plenty of security videos out there of pukes shooting a clerk after the clerk completely cooperated. The puke shoots them on the way out just for the hell of it.

would you shoot COM or go for the head?
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If I could come up behind and get close it would certainly be a head shot. Otherwise, I have trained enough to know the distance I can very confidently put 3 or 4 rounds in center mass.

If that is the case and you can't fire safely, do you draw your weapon and order him to drop his gun or do you lay low?
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Very valid question. Lay low until I can suprise with shots is my guess. Drawing and ordering the puke to do something is the job of the police, not a civilian (IMHO). I think the police have to give the opportunity to surrender, I don't think a civilian does. Once again, why give the element of suprise away to the puke? Why give him the opportunity to surrender if he is threatening the life of another innocent person? I am not trying to be a hard ass, I just don't see the logic in it. If I have drawn, I would assume I am shooting.
 
mattro

I think you misunderstood my comment about it being an LEOs job...

I meant that the LEOs have to try to control the situation and give the guy a chance to surrender while we have no such duty.
 
I practice this on the range. I dry fire and live fire. Sometimes while moving laterally and sometimes while backing away from my target. I believe that anyone truly robbing a bunch of people would go for the money clip. I use that instead of a fake wallet. The site of cash should catch their eye, after all you could be throwing an empty wallet. The cash is unmistakable. The money clip is a gold coin type clip adding some flash and weight to actually go past and away from the BG.

I carry that money clip everywhere. It's as important as my weapon and spare magazine or speed loader.
 
Tanzer said:
2. How do you get that white box to surround quotes?
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mantua said:
[q*uote] Hey, i'm from Rhode Island, too! [/q*uote]
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Just without the asterisks :D

I've been robed twice while working at McDonald's. Both times it was 2 guys with pistols, ushering everyone into the back room. Made everyone give up cell phones, and had me empty the safe at gunpoint. If you were in the lobby, would you interfere?

What about with the other kind of McDonald's robbery, "Wait until someone walks outside with a bag of money, then rob 'em". Do you interfere?

I'd shoot him in the back without hesitation. We don't get paid enough for that crap.
 
Sounds like you need to carry if its legal in your state. It's your life what are you prepared to do to protect it. If someone points a gun at me, that's sincere and credible threat to serious bodily harm. I would shoot them!
 
I can't at work. Company policy. Now, before you say "time for you to find another job, LOL", i know. Offer me a job at YOUR workplace that offers me the same pay ;)
 
Move to ohio and work for the company I work for. We are allowed to carry as long as we have our CHL, prevailing wage work to boot. I get sent downtown cinci all the time and you bet I carry.
 
When was the last time someone robbed a McDonald with body armor on?? Does this happen a lot in your area? Most of the time when someone around here is robbing somewhere, they don't have the means or brains for a $350 Kevlar vest. It's not a well-planned jewelry store heist or a bank job, it's a freakin' McDonald!
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Hot flash for ya...

I have arrested two kids--one 16, the other 14--both wearing Class II body armor. No, they weren't armed.
 
I very much agree that the bg with the EBR has crossed the line and rightly deserves to be removed from society if not the gene pool.

But I would rather see him arrested by LEO outside and maybe even at a later date, . . . rather than begin a shootout inside my favorite Denny's.

Personally, I habitually go to a corner, . . . usually the furthest one from the cash register, . . . and I keep it in sight, . . . generally with my weapon positioned away from the register.

That makes it a long shot for me, . . . and usually puts a lot of sheeple between me and the bg.

Those are the reasons I would try to be a real good witness, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Awkward

It seems it would be very awkward trying to rob people at rifle-point. You'd be relying heavily on fear and inaction, both of which would obviously be in no short supply. Disarming or wrestling around would be a definite risk associated with this kind of robbery.

I'm speaking of the physical act of taking their cash/possessions. It would take long arms and a short rifle.

Unless they're saying "kick/toss it over here" and then they have to retrieve it. This type of robbery would be very problematic.
 
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