Scenario:

P

ppcpilot

New member
We talk about bad guys robbing stores, armed and such..how about something like this...similar incident happened near here yesterday:

You are in a fast food type place, sitting down, eating...guy comes in to rob the joint. He is armed, but with an evil black rifle instead of the 'oh so common in armed robberies' handgun.

He gets money from the clerk....no shots fired..cool..just lay low.

Uh oh..now hes going after the patrons..that means you..with an EBR...

Discuss.
 
So the robbery goes down uneventful but the he turns and starts firing? Kind of a no-brainer really. During the robbery I would have uncovered and broken the thumb strap, most likely drawing discreetly and putting it in my lap, finger off the trigger but on the safety. If he turned and was ready to fire, I'd be ready to shoot in under a half a second and would have at least two rounds in him in under 2 seconds, as long as my sight picture was clear. What would I do? Shoot fast, shoot to kill.
 
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If you are in hiding (laying low) and he doesn't see you yet, the best you can do is either take off running through the doors and likely get shot in the back, or pop up and unload in him and hope he doesn't have body armor and hope you hit a vital spot before he hoses you down with the rifle.

If you have time, while he is collecting cash from the little girl behind the counter with the McDonalds hat, call the police.
 
hope he doesn't have body armor
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When was the last time someone robbed a McDonald with body armor on?? Does this happen a lot in your area? Most of the time when someone around here is robbing somewhere, they don't have the means or brains for a $350 Kevlar vest. It's not a well-planned jewelry store heist or a bank job, it's a freakin' McDonald!
 
The guy in question never did fire a shot during the 'heist', but at the time, you don't know this...you just saw him point an EBR at the clerk and get money, now he has moved to the dining area and is pointing the rifle at customers, one by one, and getting their goods...you appear to be number 3 on the list to be robbed.
 
When was the last time someone robbed a McDonald with body armor on?? Does this happen a lot in your area? Most of the time when someone around here is robbing somewhere, they don't have the means or brains for a $350 Kevlar vest. It's not a well-planned jewelry store heist or a bank job, it's a freakin' McDonald!
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How often to people rob McDonald's with a rifles? Almost never, but it obviously happens from time to time and place to place. Never heard of such in my area, but the original poster obviously has. First time for everything.

He could be some wacko ready to shoot it out with Police because he didn't get his McDonald's Happy Meal toy when he was a child and that ruined his life somehow.

Or maybe he's a wacko who's mad because the girl at the drive in window speaker because she couldn't speak english and get his Big Mac right and he came inside to get it right...at the point of a gun
 
The guy in question never did fire a shot during the 'heist', but at the time, you don't know this...you just saw him point an EBR at the clerk and get money, now he has moved to the dining area and is pointing the rifle at customers, one by one, and getting their goods...you appear to be number 3 on the list to be robbed.
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Ok, then in order to keep from escalating the situation, give over your wallet and hope he leaves without further incident. If not, still be alert enough to stay safe if you can and shoot if you cant.

How often to people rob McDonald's with a rifles? Almost never, but it obviously happens from time to time and place to place. Never heard of such in my area, but the original poster obviously has. First time for everything.

He could be some wacko ready to shoot it out with Police because he didn't get his McDonald's Happy Meal toy when he was a child and that ruined his life somehow.

Or maybe he's a wacko who's mad because the girl at the drive in window speaker because she couldn't speak english and get his Big Mac right and he came inside to get it right...at the point of a gun
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Wow. Ok. Look, people rob McDonalds, gas stations, liquer stores, etc. on a pretty frequent basis. This would be the scenario you should think about, not the far-fetched, one in a hundred million, bizzaro scenarios. The BG may have an AK, as they are pretty cheap and somewhat available illegally. He may be a gang-banger who bought it after he saw it in a movie. I can't remember one time other than the North Hollywood bank robbery where I've heard of a criminal in body armor. If you want to examine a scenario, try to keep the parameters somewhat realistic.
 
Wow. Ok. Look, people rob McDonalds, gas stations, liquer stores, etc. on a pretty frequent basis. This would be the scenario you should think about, not the far-fetched, one in a hundred million, bizzaro scenarios. The BG may have an AK, as they are pretty cheap and somewhat available illegally. He may be a gang-banger who bought it after he saw it in a movie. I can't remember one time other than the North Hollywood bank robbery where I've heard of a criminal in body armor. If you want to examine a scenario, try to keep the parameters somewhat realistic.
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I'm not stretching anything, I agree it is far fetched, but this entire thread is far fetched, but (as it is a true event) not impossible. Guys do rob places with ARs and/or Body armor once in a blue moon.
Since he probably won't have body armor then that tips this odds in my favor a little. Since he probably won't have a rifle either it is on equal footing and I have the element of surprise. Since it is likely never to happen to me, I can go on and enjoy my Big Mac and fries.

Look out for this guy and make sure you are eating in a place that knows how to treat customers:D: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eREiQhBDIk
 
Next thing you know we will have a big Starbucks heist. $4.00 for a frapachino (aka a real expensive cup of coffee) brings in a lot of money, then there are all the laptop computers all the college nerds and professors bring in to sit down and "study" with.
 
I've thought about this scenerio as I frequent a convenient store that gets robbed regularly. I asked our instructor at my last (Gunsite) class. This instructor is one of 5 people Col Cooper said is a "Master Instructor". I offered my opinion that I would not do anything until the perp showed he was going to kill someone. I offered I would yell stop. I offered to let him have all the money and whatever he wanted, as long as he didn't kill anyone.

The instructor quickly 'corrected' me by saying that he felt I was wrong in those methods. He said as soon as some puke comes in with a gun, knife or puts a screwdriver to someones throat, they are threatening serious bodliy harm or death to an innocent victim, you must put them down the first chance you get. They have crossed the line where you must act immediately, they have waived their rights. If the puke has chance to do instant harm (like a rifle or knife to throat), you turn their lights outs immediately. If you yell stop, you endanger eveyone much more. The puke could jump over the counter and take the clerk as a shield, now you have a moving target and things get worse quickly.

In the restuarant scenerio, I take him out (without warning) if he gives me the opportunity. Why wait and let him smoke someone before I will act?

FYI, these scenerios are not far fetched at all. These scenerios also illustrate why I think OC (Open Carry) is a terrible idea.
 
FYI, these scenerios are not far fetched at all.
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I wasn't saying the scenarios were far fetched. Read my post, I said these places get robbed all the time. What I said was farfetched was the body-armor part.



Ever seen Pulp Fiction?
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Mine's the one that says "Bad M.F"
 
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mattro,


I am very much a noob, so don't take this as an argument, but I think I would have a very difficult time shooting someone in the back without giving them the opportunity to drop their weapon.

I understand that giving them that opportunity provides a window of time for them to do something bad. However, I would think the odds are pretty small. I think most people are smart enough to interpret "DROP YOUR WEAPON!" to mean "I have a gun pointed at you and don't need much excuse to fire" and are going to choose a standoff or surrender over getting shot. Lucky for you, you aren't a cop and their failure to comply == direct threat, which == dead BG, so the standoff won't work out too well for them. You figure the person they have their gun aimed at is the only collateral they have (or they think they have), shooting them when someone has you in their sights is suicide.

On the other hand, getting involved in any way other than dropping them without warning puts others at risk. That is a risk for the LEOs to take, not us.

Another question, if you choose to engage them and shoot them without warning, (assuming you have time to draw and aim unnoticed) would you shoot COM or go for the head? After all, thats the best way to immediately eliminate the threat. If you don't drop them on the first shot they could shoot someone. This question is assuming you are close enough you have no doubt you can hit the target.

One last question (I promise)... given the layout of many fast food restaurants, there is a good chance there will be someone behind him from your standpoint, or possibly something obstructing the view of what is behind him. Fast food places always have that wall of crap behind the counter blocking the kitchen area. If that is the case and you can't fire safely, do you draw your weapon and order him to drop his gun or do you lay low?

Again, I am not trying to be argumentative, I would love to see some discussion on your comments to enlighten me (a mere noob).
 
If you are eating and he is at the counter, he probably has his back to you. The proper response is to line up the sights c.o.m. and fire until the threat is removed. You have no legal or moral obligation to warn the BG.
 
I assume that I have no retreat.

The BG has robbed the resturant and now is heading into the seating area to releave everyone there of their money. I would assume he yelled something to the effect, "Give me your stuff or I'll kill you!" ?
That is reasonable and I believe honest threat of serious bodily harm. Pleanty of wintnesses.

I pull my money clip, its on my weak side. I angle that side toward him (weak side) like I'm flinching away, toss the cash low and slighty behind him if he goes to reach for it I draw stongside away from him and empty my weapon.

He's bending down and my shots are aimed down toward the floor. If he doesn't reach for the cash I don't shoot. I see if an opportuntiy presents later. If he begins to shoot at anything or anyone I draw and shoot emptying and reloading untill he is down.
 
We need a fan to clear out some of this testosterone.

...given the layout of many fast food restaurants, there is a good chance there will be someone behind him from your standpoint, or possibly something obstructing the view of what is behind him. Fast food places always have that wall of crap behind the counter blocking the kitchen area. If that is the case and you can't fire safely, do you draw your weapon and order him to drop his gun or do you lay low?
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Not to mention the divider between dining and order-taking. Locating everyone in the joint becomes problematic.

If you are eating and he is at the counter, he probably has his back to you. The proper response is to line up the sights c.o.m. and fire until the threat is removed. You have no legal or moral obligation to warn the BG.
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True, however it is also your opportunity to walk out an exit at the far end of the dining area and to concealment or cover while using a cell phone to call 911. In some states, failure to retreat may be your undoing.

He said as soon as some puke comes in with a gun, knife or puts a screwdriver to someones throat, they are threatening serious bodliy harm or death to an innocent victim, you must put them down the first chance you get.
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I agree, however your "first chance" may never appear. This is especially true if the clerk is in your line of fire or the front windows of the store are backstopping your target. In this case, if other patrons are seated behind the BG as he approaches, you may have to comply until he becomes vulnerable (if ever).

During the robbery I would have uncovered and broken the thumb strap, most likely drawing discreetly and putting it in my lap, finger off the trigger but on the safety. If he turned and was ready to fire, I'd be ready to shoot in under a half a second and would have at least two rounds in him in under 2 seconds.
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Quite possible to do. Provided he cooperates by standing in the right spot or you've worked out your shooting angles ahead of time.

Let's see... he uses an EBR to hold up the cashier while I'm eating. He then approaches another customer, obtains their money and does the same to a 2nd customer... all without firing a shot. It would seem to me that he's much more interested in the money than indiscriminate shooting of people. Another point would be observing his actions and how violent (or calm) he appears to be. In this case, depending on my line of fire, number of customers, etc. I'd probably give him the cash from my wallet (usually about $4 for this poor ol' pistolero) but be watchful for his attitude to change.

KCshooter's concept is fairly good, however. Gun in the lap if you can keep it concealed. When asked for your money, lean right (you do carry your wallet in your weak side pocket right?) fetch the wallet with your left/weak hand while your strong hand drops to your lap. When you straighten up, show the wallet but bring the gun up quickly, eliminating the threat rapidly.
 
True, however it is also your opportunity to walk out an exit at the far end of the dining area and to concealment or cover while using a cell phone to call 911. In some states, failure to retreat may be your undoing.
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Clearly in this situation even if your state requires it, you are not able to safely retreat. In the states that require retreat, they don't require you to do so if it will get you killed. Chances are your movement will draw the BG's attention. If you are not prepared when you draw his attention, the odds and momentum begin to swing his way. Whether he has shot someone or not is not an issue, undoubtedly people are in danger of death or serious injury and reasonably in fear for their lives. Why leave the situation in his control when you can take control and direct the events? In this case, I can't see even the most liberal anti-gun state electing to prosecute you if you shot him.
 
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