Scenario - Hot Dog
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Glenn E. Meyer
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You have to convince the jury. It is your choice if you want to take the chance of a trial.
Give you an example (IIRC). In Dallas, a dude accosts his girl friend and shoots her in the mall parking lot. A guy sees this and retrieves a 44 mag from his car. He shoots the bad guy as he flees.
The DA wants to try this vigilante. The grand jury doesn't go for it.
In San Antonio, a young man is involved with gangs. His father is a cop. They find out that the gang members are going to come and vandalize their car. They wait on the reverse side of the garage (in ambush) and shoot the gang members. Under TX law, they get off.
If your lawyer can tell a tale that is coherent as to why you had to act, you can make a coherent story about arson. Fires are risks and even if the guy wanted to just torture the dog, the fire risk was extreme and needed to be prevented. The back story of torture can certainly influence juries. That's why you hire jury selection experts.
Of course, as my good friend David says, is this worth it for a dog on the grounds of your own personal risk and expense? Is it worth it for the moral position.
This comment is just that the jury process is not as cut and dried as the grass under the flaming dog.
OJ, Klaus Van Bueow, Robert Blake - how did they get off?
Last, to continue the game - what is the interplay of the legal right vs. the moral responsibility? That is the core of many debates on morality. If you think the dog is worth more than the nutso - well, that is a moral position. If you think that the law is incorrect and the nutso is worth taking down, that is a decision based on your conscience. The country is founded on not being bound by morally incorrect legalisms at all times.
But you have to be willing to pay the price for your actions.
Give you an example (IIRC). In Dallas, a dude accosts his girl friend and shoots her in the mall parking lot. A guy sees this and retrieves a 44 mag from his car. He shoots the bad guy as he flees.
The DA wants to try this vigilante. The grand jury doesn't go for it.
In San Antonio, a young man is involved with gangs. His father is a cop. They find out that the gang members are going to come and vandalize their car. They wait on the reverse side of the garage (in ambush) and shoot the gang members. Under TX law, they get off.
If your lawyer can tell a tale that is coherent as to why you had to act, you can make a coherent story about arson. Fires are risks and even if the guy wanted to just torture the dog, the fire risk was extreme and needed to be prevented. The back story of torture can certainly influence juries. That's why you hire jury selection experts.
Of course, as my good friend David says, is this worth it for a dog on the grounds of your own personal risk and expense? Is it worth it for the moral position.
This comment is just that the jury process is not as cut and dried as the grass under the flaming dog.
OJ, Klaus Van Bueow, Robert Blake - how did they get off?
Last, to continue the game - what is the interplay of the legal right vs. the moral responsibility? That is the core of many debates on morality. If you think the dog is worth more than the nutso - well, that is a moral position. If you think that the law is incorrect and the nutso is worth taking down, that is a decision based on your conscience. The country is founded on not being bound by morally incorrect legalisms at all times.
But you have to be willing to pay the price for your actions.
Sorry pard, round here we only throw down if we are in a serious threat of being harmed. No dog is worth more than any human period unless you are peta then I got no use for ya.
So you will take the place of judge and jury? Good luck with that. Texas kills off more folks than any other state via death chamber. as I said good luck, you is in a killing state I would be very careful on who I shot to death.
This is same as every state so why not just call 911 and let them handle the whole thing? I am sure firetrucks will roll on that call with the LEOs. I did post about a mayor of Hamburg IA that is up on charges for instructing his sheriff to kill some dogs. I wont harm an animal unles I am going to eat it, but I am not going to kill another person for cruelty, I will call 911 tho.
I percieve this statement as a threat so do I just shoot ya? Get a grip, then get another grip, you best be careful who you threaten, you are not invisible on the net, you can be tracked and found, it has been done before.
Now can someone post something that isnt plain insane? or has a want to shoot a guy feel about it? makes us look very bad to the public, as if every CCW holder wants to throw down on someone just cause they have a permit to carry a lethal weapon.
I'd love to see an example of anything in the tactics and training forum get posted where you don't have the exact same type of debate get started. Here's the problem with that.
#1 This is a FIREARMS forum. That sort of implies everything here is GUN related. Last time I checked, guns were designed pretty much for the sole purpose of giving a person the means to kill.
#2 The sub forum we are in is called TACTICS AND TRAINING (in an "alley" no less!) which both imply USING your gun in some manner.
#3 Threads entitled "scenario" generally are going to provide an example of a situation where a gun MAY or MAY NOT be used.
Every single one of these threads end up with the exact same kind of responses. You usually get:
A. I'd NEVER use my gun (all the way down to "I never even carry cause the need will never be there" And you read this why?)
B. I'll only use my gun to protect my own hide.
C. I'd try to determine if use of my gun was called for and employ it based on the situation.
D. I'll use my gun any time I think I have just cause to pull it based on a. my feelings b. how a person looks c. 2nd amendment issues d. other
E. Guns are made for blazin' and that's what I have mine for. Jest call me hair trigger...
Do you think it's possible to get a situational post on this sub forum that is not going to degenerate into this? Good luck.
I for one, am here to see if people with experience post stuff that I can learn from. Life is not absolute. Situations where you should or should not employ a gun are hardly absolute. Studying these possibilities is a good thing. If your mind is not willing to look at all the possibilities, then reading this forum will do you no good no matter how well done it is.
I mean, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here...
Anyone? Anyone?
C'mon, I know you wanna!
And when and if you do, please post your 'scenario'.
Ernest T Bass
New member
okay, you asked for it
I'm going to try my hand at a scenario. I don’t think that it has any hidden aspects.
One evening you are driving in the country. It is the dry time in Oregon. You have heard of Ernest T. Bass, who is a known dog hater. You know this fact to be true, because you’ve read it on the internet.
Thus, you see his ex-wife tying Ernest T. Bass (imagine it yourself) to a tree. She is draining his bank account and making a grab for his checkbook.
You stop and yell at her to stop. She replies “but he kicked a dog, I swear” and moves towards Ernest T. Bass with a hand outstretched towards his wallet.
You have the TFL gear - gun, OC, phone, knife, extra mag, BUG, AR or shotgun in the vehicle, vigilante mentality, hero complex, etc.
What do you do and what is your legal justification? What is your moral justification?
I'm going to try my hand at a scenario. I don’t think that it has any hidden aspects.
One evening you are driving in the country. It is the dry time in Oregon. You have heard of Ernest T. Bass, who is a known dog hater. You know this fact to be true, because you’ve read it on the internet.
Thus, you see his ex-wife tying Ernest T. Bass (imagine it yourself) to a tree. She is draining his bank account and making a grab for his checkbook.
You stop and yell at her to stop. She replies “but he kicked a dog, I swear” and moves towards Ernest T. Bass with a hand outstretched towards his wallet.
You have the TFL gear - gun, OC, phone, knife, extra mag, BUG, AR or shotgun in the vehicle, vigilante mentality, hero complex, etc.
What do you do and what is your legal justification? What is your moral justification?
Ernest T Bass
New member
No
She's really, really fat too.
She's really, really fat too.
Dont get me wrong here pal, I have read some very interesting scenarios, but when I see some thing as this I say BS. Shoot a guy cause he is going to kill a dog? This is the scene in its simplest form. 911 is to be called, anything else may get you in deep water.
I posted a real life event, no gun was pulled and shot so maybe it wasnt real enough?
Scneario, a deputy has to protect a family of 7 from hells angels they are to testify against, what do you carry? This is one thing my Uncle faced as a law man, we talk of real life events at my place, not made up fantasies. You can learn from past events, take each individual event apart piece by piece and evaluate it. Cant see that in make belive fanatasy. I have cousins that are local LEO, I would not do anything to disgrace this. I would not do anything that may keep me from owning weapons, I would not do anything I may go to jail for. In this scenario the only life directly threatened is the dogs. I can go buy a dog for 10 bucks. I am giving one away tomorrow night as a matter of fact. For free....
These are my rules of life, I recommend you find some for yourself and adhere to them in every situation.
Markj,
I quoted your statement but my reply was not 'aimed' at you. More of a general one to all out there that keep feeding this stuff. It probably sounded kind of high horse. Sorry about that. The last thread of yours you started was good but still degenerated into the same thing. I have not seen one that hasn't yet. This sub forum is only marginally useful in helping with areas in which it's titled. On the other hand, I do find a lot of it entertaining at a minimum!
I quoted your statement but my reply was not 'aimed' at you. More of a general one to all out there that keep feeding this stuff. It probably sounded kind of high horse. Sorry about that. The last thread of yours you started was good but still degenerated into the same thing. I have not seen one that hasn't yet. This sub forum is only marginally useful in helping with areas in which it's titled. On the other hand, I do find a lot of it entertaining at a minimum!
It is that, but I read these and think how many actually carry a weapon and are in the mindset they are now some sort of "police" force to go out and right wrongs etc.
The reason for ccw is to have the ability to defend yourself from BGs, not to enable you to go around shooting folks for doing illeagel things.
I asked a couple neighbors (we live out in the country in farm land) this scenario. Almost every one said if he lit the dog up shoot the dog so it cant run and spread the fire, call 911 and get the nutcase locked up. Not one said shoot the guy. Makes me glad I live where I do. You just shouldnt go around shooting folks, it is bad. specially in texas.
Para Bellum
New member
One thing missing: TFL gear - gun, OC, phone, knife, extra mag, BUG, AR or shotgun
nice thread!
My TFL gear includes a fire-extinguisher in each car. I would not shoot a human over a dog, but
- I'd make sure the human thinks I would and fire a nice warning shot very close to him (many here don't like it, I do and I do know why. I helped me avoid taking lifes).
- I'd cut the dog loose and make it run away (2nd shot into the ground).
- I'd call the police and
- I'd shoot the guy if he attacked or threatened me.
...nice quiz I still like it...
...because the extinguisher would'nt be of any use here would it?
nice thread!My TFL gear includes a fire-extinguisher in each car. I would not shoot a human over a dog, but
- I'd make sure the human thinks I would and fire a nice warning shot very close to him (many here don't like it, I do and I do know why. I helped me avoid taking lifes).
- I'd cut the dog loose and make it run away (2nd shot into the ground).
- I'd call the police and
- I'd shoot the guy if he attacked or threatened me.
...nice quiz I still like it...
...because the extinguisher would'nt be of any use here would it?
hmm..
I am pretty sure I wouldn't shoot unless it was my dog or on my property. I would, however, tell the sicko that I am armedand he should stop and make a quick exit (provided he is not on his own property.) If the freak advances on me, he will be put out of everyone's misery. If necessary, the poor little animal will be swiftly put out of its misery as well. It is a shame that such incidents do occur. I wonder, if by Texas law, the potential for arson really gives me the legal right to fire. Are there any cases on record?
I am pretty sure I wouldn't shoot unless it was my dog or on my property. I would, however, tell the sicko that I am armedand he should stop and make a quick exit (provided he is not on his own property.) If the freak advances on me, he will be put out of everyone's misery. If necessary, the poor little animal will be swiftly put out of its misery as well. It is a shame that such incidents do occur. I wonder, if by Texas law, the potential for arson really gives me the legal right to fire. Are there any cases on record?
I think the law is clear.
What might not be so clear to a jury or a grand jury would probably depend highly on the situation. If you have a clearly justifiable shoot, at least in free America, you have a fair chance of not getting arrested and/or the DA not even prosecuting.
Now, what's a justifiable shoot? Every situation is different. If you happen along and see some guy pouring gas all over the side of an appartment complex that's inhabited by lots of folks including kids and you see him attempt to light it? Well, that's probably pretty easy to see. Even then, you'd better be sure. Blow away said arsonist and then find out it was a neighborhood kid shooting a film who was using water and not gas and you didn't see the camera man, well, the situation becomes very different. In this dog thing, it's a good defense but all that would be haggled about after you had shot. I still wouldn't want my fate before a jury on a case like that!
If I have a reasonable fear that my life is in danger. Not if he has a weapon directed at me. As I run this scenario through my head, someone about to toast a pooch is pretty much off his or her rocker. I am not going to let them approach me much closer than earshot before my hand goes to the CCW. Besides, the wonder of our permits is the ability to carry CONCEALED so how do I know the sicko is unarmed (anyone can physically carry a handgun, licensed or not)?? If he advances, he drops. No question.
Also, Texas law clearly states (I just learned this) that I can shoot him on the premise of preventing arson.
...
Additionally, I am not making this about a dog's life being more valuable than a human's. I have seen some pretty sorry proceedings in courtrooms in my short lifetime. So, who is to say that this sicko might escalate to torching people once he gets bored with poor little animals? Not saying it would happen, but alot of violent criminals seem to escalate their violence as it gets old.
Additionally, I am not making this about a dog's life being more valuable than a human's. I have seen some pretty sorry proceedings in courtrooms in my short lifetime. So, who is to say that this sicko might escalate to torching people once he gets bored with poor little animals? Not saying it would happen, but alot of violent criminals seem to escalate their violence as it gets old.
This does happen, here in Alabama its happened:
http://www.nbc13.com/gulfcoastwest/vtm/news.apx.-content-articles-VTM-2007-06-27-0022.html
http://www.nbc13.com/gulfcoastwest/vtm/news.apx.-content-articles-VTM-2007-06-27-0022.html
45Marlin carbine
Moderator
Wow, tough question but I'm assuming the sicko is not on his own land, so morality demands some action, I think I would just yell and curse at the guy in hopes he would stop if not probably I would shoot to kill the dog as an act of mercy and hope that provoked the sicko to come after me next! If he had a weapon or more gas I definitely would put a Makarov round into him. If no weapon I would use my considerable pugilistic skills to beat the s*&t out of him!
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