Scandium? Anyone Shoot one?
- Thread starter Stoic
- Start date
cuerno de chivo
Moderator
KilgorII
firearmstactical.com shows no expansion of hollowpoints out of SW60 with the ammo they tested. can you show me a credible source for penetration and expansion in ballistic gelatin of .357 bullets out of 2" tubes? if it's better than a .38, then i'll gladly eat my words.
firearmstactical.com shows no expansion of hollowpoints out of SW60 with the ammo they tested. can you show me a credible source for penetration and expansion in ballistic gelatin of .357 bullets out of 2" tubes? if it's better than a .38, then i'll gladly eat my words.
K
KilgorII
Guest
Ok, sure...
I have chronoed Corbon's 125 gr .38 +P load from a Taurus 2" snubby. I also have chronoed Corbon's 125 gr. .357 load from the same snubby.
Corbon 125 gr .38 +P..........avg. 1038fps @ 299 ft/lbs
Corbon 125 gr .357 mag........avg. 1342fps @ 500 ft/lbs
Same bullet, same weight, 30% faster (300 fps), 66% more energy (200 ft/lbs).
Yes, the .357 has a significant advantage over the .38 special +P, even in a 2" tube.
Kilgor
I have chronoed Corbon's 125 gr .38 +P load from a Taurus 2" snubby. I also have chronoed Corbon's 125 gr. .357 load from the same snubby.
Corbon 125 gr .38 +P..........avg. 1038fps @ 299 ft/lbs
Corbon 125 gr .357 mag........avg. 1342fps @ 500 ft/lbs
Same bullet, same weight, 30% faster (300 fps), 66% more energy (200 ft/lbs).
Yes, the .357 has a significant advantage over the .38 special +P, even in a 2" tube.
Kilgor
cuerno de chivo
Moderator
no jello. no proof.
K
KilgorII
Guest
No jello, no proof?
Whatever.
Same bullet, same weight, 30% faster (300 fps), 66% more energy (200 ft/lbs). Let's think about this for a little while...
The only difference is speed and power.
I quit, you have a good day.
Kilgor
Whatever.
Same bullet, same weight, 30% faster (300 fps), 66% more energy (200 ft/lbs). Let's think about this for a little while...
The only difference is speed and power.
I quit, you have a good day.
Kilgor
Just wondering:
How many of you who are buying post-agreement S&W guns also voted for Gore?
Do any of you support HCI with your money?
Sorry - I forgot - the agreement has S&W doing that with every gun they sell...
Every S&W sold gets the anti-gun movement closer to their goals.
But hey - at least you'll have that precious S&W - but I wonder what your kids will think of your purchase when they can't buy one?
Whatever - s***w the next generation....
How many of you who are buying post-agreement S&W guns also voted for Gore?
Do any of you support HCI with your money?
Sorry - I forgot - the agreement has S&W doing that with every gun they sell...
Every S&W sold gets the anti-gun movement closer to their goals.
But hey - at least you'll have that precious S&W - but I wonder what your kids will think of your purchase when they can't buy one?
Whatever - s***w the next generation....
Say, KilgorII . . .
Now that I own a 2.25" SP-101 in .357 mag., I'm pretty intersted in seeing chrono results for .357 out of snubbies. (I tried emailing you, but your profile doesn't want to give me your eddress.) I think it was you that posted the info that made me want to try out the Silvertip (145 gr.) and light Hydrashok (130 gr.) loads - I've got a box of each on order.
Would you do me a favor? Drop me an email and let me know the goods on any other short-bbl .357 mag. loads you've chrono'd. I'd really appreciated it. I'm at pinto1966@earthlink.net or karlerichmartell@justice.com.
Thanks! (And sorry to the rest of you for the OT post.)
Now that I own a 2.25" SP-101 in .357 mag., I'm pretty intersted in seeing chrono results for .357 out of snubbies. (I tried emailing you, but your profile doesn't want to give me your eddress.) I think it was you that posted the info that made me want to try out the Silvertip (145 gr.) and light Hydrashok (130 gr.) loads - I've got a box of each on order.
Would you do me a favor? Drop me an email and let me know the goods on any other short-bbl .357 mag. loads you've chrono'd. I'd really appreciated it. I'm at pinto1966@earthlink.net or karlerichmartell@justice.com.
Thanks! (And sorry to the rest of you for the OT post.)
I am purging all things S&W from my vault. My 342Ti was recently sold. After shooting it extensively with 158gr +P 38s, I can tell you that a 357 of the same weight would be brutal. I shoot a lot, but with the 342Ti after a couple of cylinders full of 158gr +Ps your hand starts to hurt. After a box you are begging to quit! The guy who can't wait to get his "hands" on a 357 Scandium is soon going to be know as "lefty." 
I personally wouldn't purchase a Post-Agreement S&W. However, debating the benefits of Scandium in a light weight snubbie isn't acting like a "traitor" to the 2nd Amendment or fellow gun owners.
If Scandium is a useful medium in firearm production, then other companies will take advantage of its unique strengths and develop new products. Hence, that's the purpose of my questions. Currently, only S&W makes Scandium revolvers.
Forget about politics and let's debate the pros and cons of Scandium. Afterall, when S&W declares bankruptcy and goes out of business, someone will have to take its place and provide similar products. All of that technology and testing shouldn't go to waste.
If anyone feels that they must divest themselves of ALL S&W products in their gunsafes, especially a S&W 686, then I'll offer my services to accept delivery of your tainted and evil S&W revolver(s). I'll gladly purify them for free under the ancient laws of "Diodem" and put them to good use.
If Scandium is a useful medium in firearm production, then other companies will take advantage of its unique strengths and develop new products. Hence, that's the purpose of my questions. Currently, only S&W makes Scandium revolvers.
Forget about politics and let's debate the pros and cons of Scandium. Afterall, when S&W declares bankruptcy and goes out of business, someone will have to take its place and provide similar products. All of that technology and testing shouldn't go to waste.
If anyone feels that they must divest themselves of ALL S&W products in their gunsafes, especially a S&W 686, then I'll offer my services to accept delivery of your tainted and evil S&W revolver(s). I'll gladly purify them for free under the ancient laws of "Diodem" and put them to good use.
cuerno de chivo
Moderator
Kevinch
Since you asked:
Voted straight Republican, may my Libertarian soul be d*mned.
Didn't contribute to HCI. I am a member of the NRA, GOA, and JPFO. Just FYI, the agreement has never been enforced.
I buy good products with the features that I want. The other two political sell outs of Taurus and Ruger don't offer those products. So I buy from the political sell out Smith and Wesson. At least I'm not in DENIAL about Taurus and Ruger being sellouts as well. The degree to which ALL 3 revolver makers sold out is debateable. But the fact that ALL 3 revolver makers sold out is not.
Since you asked:
Voted straight Republican, may my Libertarian soul be d*mned.
Didn't contribute to HCI. I am a member of the NRA, GOA, and JPFO. Just FYI, the agreement has never been enforced.
I buy good products with the features that I want. The other two political sell outs of Taurus and Ruger don't offer those products. So I buy from the political sell out Smith and Wesson. At least I'm not in DENIAL about Taurus and Ruger being sellouts as well. The degree to which ALL 3 revolver makers sold out is debateable. But the fact that ALL 3 revolver makers sold out is not.
Same here. I voted straight Republican. Although my congressman (Ron Paul) is really a liberatarian. Never donated a dime directly to HCI although they probably get money through the federal taxes we pay. I am a lifetime member of the NRA and donate money on a regular basis to pro gun causes and candidates.Until the agreement goes in to effect I will buy Smith & Wesson handguns that appeal to me. Almost every handgun manufacturer has done something that I personally don't agree with. I don't need a key to operate my guns. They are supposed to be dangerous. Until S&W's need a key I will keep buying them because they do make the best revolver. Nobody else comes close!
Read the agreement!
SECTION I.1
b. External locking device. As an interim measure, until the implementation of I.A.I.C., within 60 days of execution of the Agreement, each firearm shall be supplied with an external locking device that effectively prevents the operation of the firearm when locked.
c. Internal locking device. Within 24 months of execution of the Agreement, each firearm shall be a built-in, on-board locking system, by which the firearm can only be operated with a key or combination or other mechanism unique to that gun.
d. Authorized user technology. The manufacturer parties to this Agreement shall each commit two percent of annual firearms sales revenues to the development of a technology that recognizes only authorized users and permits a gun to be used only by authorized persons. Within 36 months of the date of execution of this Agreement, this technology shall be incorporated in all new firearm designs, with the exception of curios and collectors’ firearms. This requirement does not apply to existing designs currently in production.
(Lemme get this straight: Taurus is a sellout, because they started to equip their guns with internal lock that you can select to use or not. S&W signed this, commiting to paragraph "c" that indicates it can only be operated with a key, & then section d. Ok...I guess..
)
SECTION 2
e. Large capacity magazines. No pistol make or model designed after January 1, 2000 shall be able to accept magazines manufactured prior to September 14, 1994, with a greater than 10 round capacity, and such models shall not be capable of being easily modified to accept such magazines. Nor shall ammunition magazines that are able to accept more than 10 rounds be sold by the manufacturer parties to this Agreement or their authorized dealers and distributors. See Part II.A.1.h., below.
(Ok, so now all previously manufactured magazines over 10 rounds cannot be sold by dealers or distributors. Naaa..this isn't the anti's talking, now is it?)
D. Illegal firearms. The manufacturer parties to this Agreement shall not sell firearms that can be readily converted to an illegal firearm, that is, a weapon designed in a manner so that with few additional parts and/or minimal modifications an owner can convert the firearm to an illegal fully automatic weapon; nor shall the firearms be designed so that they are resistant to fingerprints.
(Pretty vague language here, huh? I wonder who decides what constitutes "readily"? Does this sound anything like our last president? I'll give you a hint: "It depends on what your meaning of "is" is.....")
SECTIONII A
h. Not sell ammunition magazines that are able to accept more than 10 rounds regardless of the date of manufacture, not sell any semi-automatic assault weapon as defined in 18 U.S.C.921(a)(30) regardless of the date of manufacture, provide safety locks and warnings with firearms, as specified in Section 1 above, and sell only firearms that comport with the design criteria of this Agreement.
C
3. To adhere to the following procedure for multiple handgun sales. If a purchaser wants to purchase more than one handgun, the purchaser may take from the dealer only one handgun on the day of sale. The dealer at that point will file a Multiple Sales Report with ATF. The purchaser may take the additional handguns from the dealer 14 days thereafter. This provision shall not apply to sales to qualified private security companies licensed to do business within the State where the transfer occurs for use by the company in its security operations.
Hey - there's more, but why waste the bandwidth. But if you believe that there is another gun manufacturere out there that has done this kind of damage to the RKBA, and you don't believe that every purchase of a S&W doesn't further the cause of the anti-gun lobby.....
....well, the most dangerous enemy is one who thinks he's your friend.
Sorry guys - S&W is no good, unless they legally remove themselves from this agreement. Stalling the implimentation just won't cut it.
SECTION I.1
b. External locking device. As an interim measure, until the implementation of I.A.I.C., within 60 days of execution of the Agreement, each firearm shall be supplied with an external locking device that effectively prevents the operation of the firearm when locked.
c. Internal locking device. Within 24 months of execution of the Agreement, each firearm shall be a built-in, on-board locking system, by which the firearm can only be operated with a key or combination or other mechanism unique to that gun.
d. Authorized user technology. The manufacturer parties to this Agreement shall each commit two percent of annual firearms sales revenues to the development of a technology that recognizes only authorized users and permits a gun to be used only by authorized persons. Within 36 months of the date of execution of this Agreement, this technology shall be incorporated in all new firearm designs, with the exception of curios and collectors’ firearms. This requirement does not apply to existing designs currently in production.
(Lemme get this straight: Taurus is a sellout, because they started to equip their guns with internal lock that you can select to use or not. S&W signed this, commiting to paragraph "c" that indicates it can only be operated with a key, & then section d. Ok...I guess..
)SECTION 2
e. Large capacity magazines. No pistol make or model designed after January 1, 2000 shall be able to accept magazines manufactured prior to September 14, 1994, with a greater than 10 round capacity, and such models shall not be capable of being easily modified to accept such magazines. Nor shall ammunition magazines that are able to accept more than 10 rounds be sold by the manufacturer parties to this Agreement or their authorized dealers and distributors. See Part II.A.1.h., below.
(Ok, so now all previously manufactured magazines over 10 rounds cannot be sold by dealers or distributors. Naaa..this isn't the anti's talking, now is it?)
D. Illegal firearms. The manufacturer parties to this Agreement shall not sell firearms that can be readily converted to an illegal firearm, that is, a weapon designed in a manner so that with few additional parts and/or minimal modifications an owner can convert the firearm to an illegal fully automatic weapon; nor shall the firearms be designed so that they are resistant to fingerprints.
(Pretty vague language here, huh? I wonder who decides what constitutes "readily"? Does this sound anything like our last president? I'll give you a hint: "It depends on what your meaning of "is" is.....")
SECTIONII A
h. Not sell ammunition magazines that are able to accept more than 10 rounds regardless of the date of manufacture, not sell any semi-automatic assault weapon as defined in 18 U.S.C.921(a)(30) regardless of the date of manufacture, provide safety locks and warnings with firearms, as specified in Section 1 above, and sell only firearms that comport with the design criteria of this Agreement.
C
3. To adhere to the following procedure for multiple handgun sales. If a purchaser wants to purchase more than one handgun, the purchaser may take from the dealer only one handgun on the day of sale. The dealer at that point will file a Multiple Sales Report with ATF. The purchaser may take the additional handguns from the dealer 14 days thereafter. This provision shall not apply to sales to qualified private security companies licensed to do business within the State where the transfer occurs for use by the company in its security operations.
Hey - there's more, but why waste the bandwidth. But if you believe that there is another gun manufacturere out there that has done this kind of damage to the RKBA, and you don't believe that every purchase of a S&W doesn't further the cause of the anti-gun lobby.....
....well, the most dangerous enemy is one who thinks he's your friend.
Sorry guys - S&W is no good, unless they legally remove themselves from this agreement. Stalling the implimentation just won't cut it.
cuerno de chivo
Moderator
so what? they haven't ruined guns yet with the built-in, non-removable gun lock. they still make a product that i want. since it is a purely a self defence item (SW342PD), a product i need.
i really don't know how someone is STUPID enough to not figure out that voluntarily putting a built-in, non-removable gunlock on a firearm is a form of selling out to the anti-gun movement.
even if the agreement was enforced, i would still buy a SW342PD unless they ruined it with by putting a built-in, non-removable gun lock. it would be much harder to find though. i ain't going to buy anything with a built-in, non-removable gun lock.
i really don't know how someone is STUPID enough to not figure out that voluntarily putting a built-in, non-removable gunlock on a firearm is a form of selling out to the anti-gun movement.
even if the agreement was enforced, i would still buy a SW342PD unless they ruined it with by putting a built-in, non-removable gun lock. it would be much harder to find though. i ain't going to buy anything with a built-in, non-removable gun lock.
hankrearden2000
New member
It looks as if Section 2 D, Illegal Firearms is basically a ban on all firearms; incrementally of course.
Just like everyone to remember that S&W is now a spokesperson for the anti-gun movement. Everytime a reporter needs a quote showing how the firearms industry is going down the tubes, they turn to S&W, which is only too willing to comment about how it's an oversaturated, "mature" market. That only gives power to the anti-gun lobbyists, who can tell politicians that their "cash cow" is drying up and time to get on the will of the people bandwagon.
By the way, the most onerous point of the agreement isn't the illegal preferential treatment offered to S&W, or the illegal restraint on trade. The worst part is the provision that states when a certain percentage of manufacturers sign on, the agreement becomes binding on ALL manufacturers, regardless of whether they signed or not. Nice, huh? S&W tried to lead everyone down the path to confiscation in order to achieve sole source contracts with the gov't.
By the way, the most onerous point of the agreement isn't the illegal preferential treatment offered to S&W, or the illegal restraint on trade. The worst part is the provision that states when a certain percentage of manufacturers sign on, the agreement becomes binding on ALL manufacturers, regardless of whether they signed or not. Nice, huh? S&W tried to lead everyone down the path to confiscation in order to achieve sole source contracts with the gov't.
K
KilgorII
Guest
Nevermind... I'd get kicked off the board if I left it on here.
[Edited by KilgorII on 04-21-2001 at 02:40 PM]
[Edited by KilgorII on 04-21-2001 at 02:40 PM]
cuerno de chivo
Moderator
buzz_knox
and destroying a domestic manufacturer of innovatice and prolific civillian self-defence/concealed carry firearms is a totally pro-gun activity?
and destroying a domestic manufacturer of innovatice and prolific civillian self-defence/concealed carry firearms is a totally pro-gun activity?
Here you go...
M16 asked:
I have now, or previously, owned 7 handguns & 1 rifle of the above mentioned manufacturers. Out of all the above, while Bill Ruger said & did some stupid things, none of them come close to Shultz & Smith. Opinions are like...well, you know..but S&W signed on the dotted line.
cuerno de chivo
cdc - I don't need to get into name calling here...that is reserved to someone finally realizing they are losing an argument. But as you have indicated I am stupid, indulge my lack of grey matter by going back & re-reading Section I.1. After you have read it, explain to me how Taurus is somehow "selling out" by voluntarily placing a user-select lock on their guns, when S&W voluntarily signed an legal & binding agreement to produce weapons that can only be operated by a key, plus develop authorized user technology?.
he then further rambles:
yes, I guess you're right. Just like when the Jews were anti-patriots when they wanted to eradicate the man who fed post WWI Germany, Adolf Hitler.
Like my last boss used to tell me: "Don't tell me what you did for me yesterday. Tell me what you'll do for me today".
M16 asked:
I have now, or previously, owned 7 handguns & 1 rifle of the above mentioned manufacturers. Out of all the above, while Bill Ruger said & did some stupid things, none of them come close to Shultz & Smith. Opinions are like...well, you know..but S&W signed on the dotted line.
cuerno de chivo
cdc - I don't need to get into name calling here...that is reserved to someone finally realizing they are losing an argument. But as you have indicated I am stupid, indulge my lack of grey matter by going back & re-reading Section I.1. After you have read it, explain to me how Taurus is somehow "selling out" by voluntarily placing a user-select lock on their guns, when S&W voluntarily signed an legal & binding agreement to produce weapons that can only be operated by a key, plus develop authorized user technology?.
he then further rambles:
yes, I guess you're right. Just like when the Jews were anti-patriots when they wanted to eradicate the man who fed post WWI Germany, Adolf Hitler.
Like my last boss used to tell me: "Don't tell me what you did for me yesterday. Tell me what you'll do for me today".