Saw This At A Local Gun Shop Saturday

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pendennis

Moderator
While looking for some speed loaders at a local gun shop, and pondering whether to purchase a S&W Model 40, I saw the following take place:

A man, with his "significant other" alongside, asks to check out a S&W M&P, in .40S&W. He works the slide, pulls the trigger, and says "Thank you", to the clerk.

In the next half-minute, the man's "significant other", steps over to his spot, and announces to the clerk, that she wants to buy the M&P, that the guy just handled.

She produces her CPL (needed in Michigan for an instant purchase), and her driver's license. The clerk asks the woman if the S&W is for her, and she replies, "Yes". The 4473 is completed, and the money changes hands.

I realize that the clerk was probably on firm-enough legal grounds by asking the woman her intentions, but it left me with a doubt.

From appearances, the man couldn't buy the gun that day, and it seemed to be suspiciously like a straw purchase, in my eyes.

Now, the question: If you were the clerk, would you have sold the woman the gun?
 
Using only the facts you gave, there is simply no way to determine whether that was a straw purchase, or whether the gentleman was simply advising his companion in a purchase decision. You also have no idea whether the gentleman was legally able to make the purchase himself or not, unless you see the results of a background check, nor could you know for a fact that he doesn't have a license as well.
 
This came up in another thread, and the answer is twofold.

Legally, the clerk's posterior is covered in most states. Michigan may be stricter; feel free to correct me. As long as the clerk matches her ID to the 4473, she answers the questions correctly, and he follows all the necessary procedures, he's in the right.

Ethically, I'd have wanted more input. I'd rather lose a sale than have an ATF agent giving me the stink-eye while I pull a form for a gun that ended up at a crime scene. Even if you do everything right, they start to take notice if guns from your business start getting traced more than the average dealer.

In this case, the woman had a CPL, which isn't an easy thing to get in Michigan, so she's at least a gun person. She may have been buying it for him as a gift, which is legal. Her way of going about it is odd, but my decision would hinge on a gut feeling, which is something I can't establish unless I'm there.
 
going off the info you have posted I would say no
I have been there to advise friends on there gun purchases and i have handled guns and fondled them but the guy behind the counter knows before hand I am there just to help and am not walking out with a gun unless I find something the wife will let me get (hasn't happened yet that she has let me get one on impulse)
 
I've been that guy.

I've gone to the store/gunshow with my wife to look for a gun. She finds something she likes and points it out or maybe we talked about what she's looking for in the car or at home before leaving.

I look it over (maybe handle it/do a checkout) & then we go talk about it. I tell her what I know about that particular model and what my checkout noted. She may have some questions. When we're done talking if she likes what she hears she'll go over & maybe handle it/look it over herself, then perhaps buy it.

We do it that way because we both got tired of dealing with gun store clerks. We worked out the strategy to keep her away from the counter and the hassle until she's fairly sure she's got something she likes and is likely to be a good buy.
 
Sure... Sounds legal to me even if the gun is for the guy...
Just because it a gift, doesn't mean he can't be involved in choosing the gift he is getting...
And a gift doesn't need purchased in secret nor in advance of giving to the recipient...
I am no ffl so pardon me if my belief is wrong.
If I am wrong, my wife and daughter will suffer. I will be able to cut out all them "...Because you love me, daddy" purchase requests as "Sorry lil miss.hogdogs, Daddy can't buy a gift if you are with me. I also cannot buy what you choose for a gift."
Brent
 
Using only the facts you gave, there is simply no way to determine whether that was a straw purchase, or whether the gentleman was simply advising his companion in a purchase decision.
Click to expand...

Bingo. I can't say that any thing illegal happened here.
 
It does not appear, with the facts given, that it was an illegal transaction.

I was looking for another pistol that would fire the .45 colt (long colt). My buddy and I were at a gun show and he was on one side of the building and I was on the other side. He called and said "You have gotta get over here by the blue banner! I have a gun for you!"
I gimped my way over and he showed me a revolver that looked like a rifle. I ended up buying it, but the dealer asked me how would he know I was not buying it for my buddy? We both laughed and and my buddy showed him another handgun that he purchased earlier and told the dealer he could ask the person he bought it from if it was purchased by him, or someone else.

Long story short: That dealer risked a pretty good sale by worrying about the law. He did not loose the sale because we understood what he was doing and his concern. Personally I appreciated what he did. Hopefully his ethics would help keep guns out of the hands of idiots and people who are not allowed to own a handgun.
 
This is one of those things where the BATFE has completely lost track of the concept of "problem ownership".

In this case the store owner fulfilled his due diligence by determining that the woman was legally allowed to purchase the firearm. If the woman was committing a "straw purchase" then SHE would be the one doing the criminal act and should be dealt with, not the store owner.
 
While looking for some speed loaders at a local gun shop, and pondering whether to purchase a S&W Model 40, I saw the following take place:

A man, with his "significant other" alongside, asks to check out a S&W M&P, in .40S&W. He works the slide, pulls the trigger, and says "Thank you", to the clerk.

In the next half-minute, the man's "significant other", steps over to his spot, and announces to the clerk, that she wants to buy the M&P, that the guy just handled.

She produces her CPL (needed in Michigan for an instant purchase), and her driver's license. The clerk asks the woman if the S&W is for her, and she replies, "Yes". The 4473 is completed, and the money changes hands.

I realize that the clerk was probably on firm-enough legal grounds by asking the woman her intentions, but it left me with a doubt.

From appearances, the man couldn't buy the gun that day, and it seemed to be suspiciously like a straw purchase, in my eyes.

Now, the question: If you were the clerk, would you have sold the woman the gun?
Click to expand...

Even if she had stated, "No, it is for my husband", who cares? Gifts of firearms are legal.

Same situation I have been in many times. As an active duty service member I can buy handguns from FFLs on my military orders and military ID. My wife cannot (from FFLs) due to her out of state driver's license. So, if she wanted a handgun, we would go to the store, she would pick out what she wanted, I would buy it and give it to her as a gift.
 
If the FFL knowingly transferred to a straw purchaser, they will most likely lose their license.
Click to expand...

Yes, but the only way the FFL could know would be if the women said "My man wants this gun, he doesn't have a permit so I'm buying it for him."

Under the circumstances mentioned, there is absolutely, positively no way to know that it's a straw purchase.

(See JohnKSa's post above)
 
If it was me, I'd ask the lady who the gentleman was and whether or not the gun was for her.

As far as I am concerned, the gentleman might just be inspecting the gun for her.

As long as the transaction is legal (i.e. she has the proper paperwork and license, passes background check), and she obviously wants to make the purchase, I don't see why I shouldn't sell the gun to her.

If the guy was planning to do something illegal with it, he probably wouldn't be at a FFL dealer anyways.
 
You could also run into problem if the couple is a member of a minority ethnic group. Then there is a hue and cry about the gunstore refusing to sell to people who are ________.
 
now I have a question
Say my significant other takes me to a gun store I pick out the gun and I fill out all the paper work and she hands the clerk her credit card. Is that legal?
 
Hellbilly5000 said:
now I have a question
Say my significant other takes me to a gun store I pick out the gun and I fill out all the paper work and she hands the clerk her credit card. Is that legal?
Click to expand...

That depends. If you are going to keep the gun as yours, then, yes it is legal. If she is going to keep the gun, then no, it is not legal.

HOWEVER, even if you are going to keep the gun as yours, you will not find an FFL that will do that because now they have a credit card transaction in one name and a 4473 in another name and that is very difficult to explain to the BATFE during an audit.
 
Went with a friend who was getting ready to graduate from the police academy.She knew little about firearms other than firing them in class,but she wanted to buy her own for off duty carry.Her department carried Smiths at the time and i knew of a well known shop that had police trade-ins.I looked through about ten of them and then said get this one.If asked for I.D. i would have probably told the clerk to **** up a rope.
 
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