Musashi's famous use of the bokken was his most famous duel against Ganryu, a swordmaster using an exceptionally long Tachi sword. Because Ganryu had the advantage in length of weapon, Musashi carved a boat oar into an even longer bokken for use in the duel, this added length won him the duel. It was a matter of field expedience, not love for wood.
Samurai Sword question
- Thread starter Jack Carson
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The particulars of that duel are negligible. The point is, Musashi killed nearly 30 bladed samurai with a wooden stick. The technique of the samurai is based on redundancy. If you land a stab with a blunted (or broken) weapon, it doesn't matter, because the shear force of a thrust to the underside of the chin will send a bokken through the throat and into the brain cavity.
And, speaking of redundancy, this brings us back to the wakisashi. Honestly, I don't know why the samurai never used the short sword. They weren't forbidden to. I guess they figured bigger was better. Musashi sure didn't mind going nito (two blades). In fact, he didn't pioneer the nito style until after he had already mastered the kitana and wakisashi technique. My guess is that the samurai always wanted to save the wakisashi as an absolute last resort. If all else fails, and you're pinned to the ground with a broken blade and no friends, reach for the wakisashi.
Incidentally, I am a blue belt in iaido, and I can testify to the fact that nito is very much alive in practice, and it DOES NOT cost the practitioner any element of control.
And in the mist
one can see
we are all
as we live in our Ki.
-Master Kirby
And, speaking of redundancy, this brings us back to the wakisashi. Honestly, I don't know why the samurai never used the short sword. They weren't forbidden to. I guess they figured bigger was better. Musashi sure didn't mind going nito (two blades). In fact, he didn't pioneer the nito style until after he had already mastered the kitana and wakisashi technique. My guess is that the samurai always wanted to save the wakisashi as an absolute last resort. If all else fails, and you're pinned to the ground with a broken blade and no friends, reach for the wakisashi.
Incidentally, I am a blue belt in iaido, and I can testify to the fact that nito is very much alive in practice, and it DOES NOT cost the practitioner any element of control.
And in the mist
one can see
we are all
as we live in our Ki.
-Master Kirby
Matt Wallis
New member
Mahakorin,
Iaido is actually a pretty well known Japanese sword art. I'm really surprised you've never heard of it. Don't practice it myself (I'm more into western sword arts), but I've heard of lot's of people who do. Here's a website for one school of iaido. I believe the Master there, Kim Taylor, is also a maker of finely crafted bokken.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/
Regards,
Matt
Iaido is actually a pretty well known Japanese sword art. I'm really surprised you've never heard of it. Don't practice it myself (I'm more into western sword arts), but I've heard of lot's of people who do. Here's a website for one school of iaido. I believe the Master there, Kim Taylor, is also a maker of finely crafted bokken.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~iaido/
Regards,
Matt
Matt, that's the thing though:
Most of the sword-training in Japan is Kendo. The defining organization for all swordsmanship in Japan should still be the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei, the All Japan Kendo Federation - unless UFOs have taken over Japan in my absence.
The "Nikkenren" (for short) to the best of my knowledge recognizes iaijutsu and has forms for it, but I've never heard of it describe Iaido as one of its arts, and never a belt classification.
Iaijutsu as I have understood it is a form for drawing, striking, and returning the blade to the saya, all in the same motion. I know back home Yagyu Shingakeryu (based I think still in Sangenjaya, Tokyo, about 15 min away from my dad's house) still does traditional swordwork, but such places I thought fall under the name of Kenjuku, or "sword academies."
Not to say that it doesn't exist, but you have to understand that in Japanese the difference between ~jutsu ('method')and ~do ('way', though actually untranslatable) is a hair's breadth. Any recognizable body of combat techniques automatically earns the ~jutsu suffix, i.e. ninjutsu. It earns the ~do suffix, when it acquires a perception of artistry (which can be downright prissy at times.) An absolute prerequisite for this is the creation of forms, and it is around these kata that the various schools and branches, the ryuha revolve. Everything else is pretty much exclusionary, never mind tinkering with the forms. That sort of thing gets you thrown out quick back home.
At any rate, a few calls back home sufficed to put things into perspective ... yes there is Iaido, just that I'd never really focused on it (the Kendo aegis under the Nikkenren in Japan is HUGE) and certainly never heard of a belt classification. To be honest, I don't deal with Kendo anyways. People learning different arts in Japan tend not to mix. When I was in high school the Kendo people wouldn't talk to the Judo people and vice versa. I found it hilarious.
Sorry about the mixup.
Most of the sword-training in Japan is Kendo. The defining organization for all swordsmanship in Japan should still be the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei, the All Japan Kendo Federation - unless UFOs have taken over Japan in my absence.
The "Nikkenren" (for short) to the best of my knowledge recognizes iaijutsu and has forms for it, but I've never heard of it describe Iaido as one of its arts, and never a belt classification.
Iaijutsu as I have understood it is a form for drawing, striking, and returning the blade to the saya, all in the same motion. I know back home Yagyu Shingakeryu (based I think still in Sangenjaya, Tokyo, about 15 min away from my dad's house) still does traditional swordwork, but such places I thought fall under the name of Kenjuku, or "sword academies."
Not to say that it doesn't exist, but you have to understand that in Japanese the difference between ~jutsu ('method')and ~do ('way', though actually untranslatable) is a hair's breadth. Any recognizable body of combat techniques automatically earns the ~jutsu suffix, i.e. ninjutsu. It earns the ~do suffix, when it acquires a perception of artistry (which can be downright prissy at times.) An absolute prerequisite for this is the creation of forms, and it is around these kata that the various schools and branches, the ryuha revolve. Everything else is pretty much exclusionary, never mind tinkering with the forms. That sort of thing gets you thrown out quick back home.
At any rate, a few calls back home sufficed to put things into perspective ... yes there is Iaido, just that I'd never really focused on it (the Kendo aegis under the Nikkenren in Japan is HUGE) and certainly never heard of a belt classification. To be honest, I don't deal with Kendo anyways. People learning different arts in Japan tend not to mix. When I was in high school the Kendo people wouldn't talk to the Judo people and vice versa. I found it hilarious.
Sorry about the mixup.
Matt Wallis
New member
Hmmm. I wonder if the "All Japan Kendo Federation" in Japan is a bit like the Olympic/Sport fencers here. They sometimes think they are the heirs-apparent to all Western swordsmanship (no offense if you are a fencer that doesn't think that!) when in actuality they are simply a modern sport pretty far removed from their martial heritage (Classical Fencing excepted, of course). Though I am not officially making this claim about the "All Japan Kendo Federation" since I don't really know much about them, I wouldn't be surprised to find they are the same way. If not, someone please enlighten me.
Regards,
Matt Wallis
Regards,
Matt Wallis
I don't think so
Considering the Japanese have this huge penchant for centralization and "unity," I really don't think that Nikkenren operates as some sort of fascist umbrella group. There's "All-Japan" groups for pretty much every conceivable group activity out there in the country. Nikkenren isn't all that different and I don't think it shoves standards outrageously down peoples' throats.
Considering the Japanese have this huge penchant for centralization and "unity," I really don't think that Nikkenren operates as some sort of fascist umbrella group. There's "All-Japan" groups for pretty much every conceivable group activity out there in the country. Nikkenren isn't all that different and I don't think it shoves standards outrageously down peoples' throats.
I am a student of Satori Rhu Iaido, an art made popular in this region by my Master, Dale Kirby. His dojo is just north of Nashville, TN, but I commonly practice in one of the subsidiary dojos lead by one of the Master's students, Lansing England. If you wish to know more about the art, you should check out the Master's two volume book set, Samurai Swordsmanship.
It's funny you should talk thay way about Olympic Fencers, Matt. I myself started the sword arts as an Olympic style fencer. I left that sport and began studying Iaido because of it's more "traditionalist" approach. I just couldn't get over the system of sacrificing points in a fencing match. If someone stabs you in the throat with a sword, you're dead. No ifs ands or buts about it. Besides, Fencing is expensive!
Anyway, I assure all you readers at home that there is, in fact, such thing as Iaido. Moreover, there are many different styles of Iaido. In my humblest opinion, they are all incredibly worthwhile arts.
Anyway, I assure all you readers at home that there is, in fact, such thing as Iaido. Moreover, there are many different styles of Iaido. In my humblest opinion, they are all incredibly worthwhile arts.
Matt Wallis
New member
Mahakorin,
Understood. Just so you don't think I was unfairly busting on the Nikkenren, though, what made me think what I did was that a _kendo_ organization was supposed to be the "defining organization for all swordsmanship" in Japan. Especially when kendo seems to me to be pretty far removed from realistic swordplay. But again, I'm no expert on the subject. So I'll happily bow to your knowledge on this matter.
Samurai,
Yeah, Olympic fencing leaves a lot to be desired if you are interested in practicing swordsmanship as a martial art. There is a resurrection of some older forms of three weapon fencing dubbed "Classical Fencing" that is more martial and focuses on training for the 19th century duel. And there are other groups that practice renaissance and medieval swordsmanship as a martial art too. (That's what I do, BTW.) Check out the already mentioned Historical Armed Combat Assoc. ( www.thehaca.com ) for more info on that.
Regards,
Matt Wallis
Understood. Just so you don't think I was unfairly busting on the Nikkenren, though, what made me think what I did was that a _kendo_ organization was supposed to be the "defining organization for all swordsmanship" in Japan. Especially when kendo seems to me to be pretty far removed from realistic swordplay. But again, I'm no expert on the subject. So I'll happily bow to your knowledge on this matter.
Samurai,
Yeah, Olympic fencing leaves a lot to be desired if you are interested in practicing swordsmanship as a martial art. There is a resurrection of some older forms of three weapon fencing dubbed "Classical Fencing" that is more martial and focuses on training for the 19th century duel. And there are other groups that practice renaissance and medieval swordsmanship as a martial art too. (That's what I do, BTW.) Check out the already mentioned Historical Armed Combat Assoc. ( www.thehaca.com ) for more info on that.
Regards,
Matt Wallis
Matt Wallis
New member
Sounds like theatrical fencing. A completely different thing from practicing swordsmanship as a martial art. Still though, it can be done with some amount of realism when done properly.
Regards,
Matt
Regards,
Matt
tonyulichnie
New member
Drawing sword
Good Evening
Iaido the art of drawing the sword is a very respected art and a very graceful in its movement.
I teach Iaido, OMORI-RYU IAI style here in Michigan along with Aikido and most of my students start with an unsharp prepared sword after about 1 year depending on time spent in the dojo they will move to the more traditional prepared sword which we have a cerimony for in presenting the sword to them.
Good discussion here, glad to see it
Ulichnie Sensei
Grand Rapids Aikido Club
Good Evening
Iaido the art of drawing the sword is a very respected art and a very graceful in its movement.
I teach Iaido, OMORI-RYU IAI style here in Michigan along with Aikido and most of my students start with an unsharp prepared sword after about 1 year depending on time spent in the dojo they will move to the more traditional prepared sword which we have a cerimony for in presenting the sword to them.
Good discussion here, glad to see it
Ulichnie Sensei
Grand Rapids Aikido Club
Hell's Angel Sonny Barger face shot with .25, a
guy whom Sonny had bent backwards over a pool table. The guy testified to this at Sonny's trial!
A guy in CA shot a guy twice in the chest with a .45, tossed him into the Pacific, from a tuna boat. The guy found something to keep him afloat, another boat saved him, and he put ol'Kemo in prison for life. You have to see their BRAINS before you can REALLY write them off, or see their heads separated from their necks.
guy whom Sonny had bent backwards over a pool table. The guy testified to this at Sonny's trial!
A guy in CA shot a guy twice in the chest with a .45, tossed him into the Pacific, from a tuna boat. The guy found something to keep him afloat, another boat saved him, and he put ol'Kemo in prison for life. You have to see their BRAINS before you can REALLY write them off, or see their heads separated from their necks.In the mid 60's
We just practiced kata and drawing, quite a bit....like during the whole session each class for over a year. The main goal was not so much the learning of self-defense as the perfection of the technique of drawing and returning the sword to scabbard.
We understood that the main objective was to reach the zen like moment when performing the technique properly.
Of course, being young (about sixteen) after class we tried to see what the self-defense implications were.
Years later, the act of drawing and speedily returning the sword to its scabbard prevented three guys from wanting to attack me to steal the sword.
We just practiced kata and drawing, quite a bit....like during the whole session each class for over a year. The main goal was not so much the learning of self-defense as the perfection of the technique of drawing and returning the sword to scabbard.
We understood that the main objective was to reach the zen like moment when performing the technique properly.
Of course, being young (about sixteen) after class we tried to see what the self-defense implications were.
Years later, the act of drawing and speedily returning the sword to its scabbard prevented three guys from wanting to attack me to steal the sword.
My Iaido class is fairly diversified in its pursuits. We spend MANY hours practicing the batto and noto, along with the many katas within the art. However, our class is unique in that it is a University PE class, and so the demographic demands more practical instruction. Our Sensei tries to blend a good measure of Akido and Kendo techniques into our studies. He even allows us to engage each other in "sparring" offensive and evasive excercises. All in all, it is a great way to gain exposure to the sword arts.
striderteen
New member
Do any of you know of a good kendo or other Asian bladed-weapons dojo in the Pasadena area? I'm doing European fencing at the moment, but prefer a more martial style.
The reason I made the wiseass remark about the .25 was that pawnshop guy who used to post a lot to rec.guns on usenet - He turned a mall-ninja type down on a NICS check, and the guy went home, changed into his ninja costume (yup), got a sword, and went back to the hock shop... He managed a couple of cuts, and at least one through-through, but the hockshop owner, while attempting to maneuver to a "real" gun, finally remembered that he had a little .25 in his pocket, pulled it, and put a shot or two into the guy's eye... Lights out, and the pawnshop guy eventually recovered...
striderteen
New member
Welll...a cheap imitation katana is nearly worthless at any range. A real one can literally cut an opponent in half with a single swing, but STILL has a range of about four-five feet.
Against a .25, though, you could probably kill the guy before he can take you down, unless he gets a good headshot. The .25 doesn't really have the punch to be a good defensive gun, although any gun is better than none.
Against a .25, though, you could probably kill the guy before he can take you down, unless he gets a good headshot. The .25 doesn't really have the punch to be a good defensive gun, although any gun is better than none.