Samurai Sword question

J

Jack Carson

New member
I have never had the opportunity to study the traditional martial arts but I have always been intrigued by them. Yesterday I finished reading "Code of the Samurai" as translated by Thomas Cleary and he mentioned the two swords several times.

The Samurai and Bushi carried two swords, one long and one short. Was the short sword for fighting in tight places? I guess I had always assumed the long sword used a two-handed hold and it would be awkward to sheath the long sword and draw the short one if the fighting moved into woods, a home, etc. Or was it primarily a backup in case the long sword was damaged by armor, etc?

Can anyone clarify this for me?
 
"Bushido Shoshinshu" (aka 'The Bushido Primer') is a good book ... Cleary always does readable translations.

From what I remember the wakizashi ('side-slotted', name indicating how it was carried) was almost never used in combat except in serious emergencies. The blades used in seppuku that are depicted in woodcuts etc are almost always a shirasaya (plain wood) tanto, not wakizashi ... the wakizashi was really there on the belt as a status symbol. There being no restrictions to katana usage by the Japanese nobility til the 19th century, if you were a samurai, you had a katana - and it never left your side.

I can tell you that the katana was the principal, and pretty much the only weapon used in combat in all situations. Samurai riding into open battle would carry extra katana in case of breakage, and not use wakizashi, should the situation permit. They'd ride in with compound bows, close in with naginata (pole-ax) and then use katana, but I've never heard of wakizashi ever being used in combat. Not even in tight quarters. Ever.

Aaa, atama itai! Someone, help!
 
The Hagakure is also a very good book. It is philisophical and explains the Bushido in example form.

I agree with Mahakorin, but would like to add just a little more.

The wakazashi saw greater use after the warring periods when ronin and/or other samurai would duel. But even this is very rare as few samurai were trained with double sword arts.
 
That's the thing, though ... I can't ever recall an example of a wakizashi being drawn in any of the duels I can remember reading about that happened after Sengoku Jidai (The Warring States Period) when it ended in the 17th century. Use of the daisho at the same time is generally frowned upon since you lose controllability of the katana with just one hand ... oh well I guess I can look it up again in a few months ...

I have heard of two wakizashi being used simultaneously, but not of any style that claims to teach such a method.
 
I remember reading it somewhere, but I cannot remember the source at the moment. Let me see if I can't look it up and find it.

gryphon
 
Musashi say...

A weapon undrawn is a weapon wasted.

IIRC only samurai were allowed to carry/posses two swords

In the world of fiction there was a series written by Jassica Salmonson about a female samurai the first book was called Tomoe Gozen. Tomoe used a pair of swords one in each hand and was quite good but the emporeor (?) didn't approve and sent ninja to help her back on to the correct path. IIRC the ninja demonstrated\explained to her that having two long swords was like having two souls and left her center exsposed. How much of this tries in to rality I don't know, but the books were quite enjoyable.
 
Thank you for the information!

Mahakorin, gryphon and Seeker, thank you all for the information. The wakizashi, then, more nearly translates to our practice of carrying a backup firearm in terms of practicality?

I might have guessed it was also a symbol of status and accomplishment.

Two people have recommended I read Cleary's translation of the Book of Five Rings as well. I certainly intend to look into more of this type of work. It is extrordinarily interesting.
Thank you all again, Jack
 
Musashi, if I remember correctly, pioneered a two-sword style of kenjutsu. In that sense, it wouldn't be so much like our carrying a backup piece than it would be like Correia doin' his Chow-Yun Fat two-pistol blast thing. :D

I'd wager he was the exception to the rule, though. The guy got bored with swords 'cause he won too easily, so he started carrying wooden bokken (practice swords, basically) instead. He still won handily. Source for all this is book of five rings (Go Rin No Sho) Interesting reading, certainly.

Also, it was, as I recall, polite custom to leave your katana at the door when visiting. In this case, the wakizashi would be like a more polite "carry piece" that didn't leave your side. That part, i'm afraid I can't remember the source.. been years since I was seriously studying that stuff.. got distracted by modern weapons. :D

-K
 
Question

Mahakorin et al,
I can only ask about movies in general...
Did samurai give up their katana when they were at the emperor's castle? The only time that they gave up their katana? Or was it only in the movies?
Can you please clear up this confusion?

Also from the movies, did Miyamoto Musashi develop the two sword style of fighting? Using both katana and wakizashi? Or was that also only in the movies?

Appreciate your answers.

Just for info purposes, I did see an iaido master demonstrate in competition a two sword fighting method...he also competed against kendoists. Some clear wins, but also some losts. (Saw this in Tokyo)
I would like to have seen film of this master when he was younger as he was physically fine for his age, but clearly he was not very fast in his techniques against younger kendoists that were skillful .
 
i'll put in my .02 but take it for what it's worth because i'm working from memory at work.

upon entering the emperor's castle, they gave up both the long and short swords (the tanto isn't a sword). when entering someone's home it was polite to remove your long sword

only samurai carried 2 swords, specifically they were allowed to carry the "long 'killing' blade". if they were not samurai they were restricted to the wakizashi.

Musashi developed his two sword fighting style using two katana before he converted to the bokken (wooden swords, which can easily kill or cripple)
 
My memory fades, but didn't Miyamoto Musashi say that with a skilled opponent even he used only one sword?

Skorzeny
 
Musashi
Before the ranks have closed, use a gun.
The short sword is advantageous in confined spaces.
The long sword generaly has appropriate uses in any situation.
Long sword in one hand, short sword in the other.
The long sword should be used with one hand.

Can't find reference to preference for one sword over two. Several times it is stressed , in one to one combat, to make the first move the last move.

Sam
 
If the distance and wielder are adequate the .25, or any gun, should perform the stop. If the range is close enough for use of blade, then the odds favor the most skilled.

Sam
 
To Bogie and Sam--True Story

Stillwater, Oklahoma. It was either 1979 or 1980, I don't remember. Two guys got into a fight in a little dive of a place called "The Blue Room." One was armed with a .25 acp and the other had a razor sharp Buck knife.

The guy with the Buck knife was treated and released to police custody that night. They pulled the bullets out of his chest and face, applied bandages and sent him to the Payne County lockup. The guy with the .25 suffered several major internal injuries and lost one testicle. He stayed in the hospital for quite a while but as I remember he did survive--I think he sang alto in the prison choir after that.

I don't want to get shot with a BB gun and I don't want to take a knife to a gunfight. Most of all this story taught me to stay out of this type of bar and to be choosy about my carry guns.

Thanks again to all who responded. jack
 
Shot placement and luck play a large role in the effectiveness of a gun. The guy in the bar was too close to the guy with the knife, as evidenced by the outcome.

.25 is pushing the envelope of skill and luck even with good skill level.

Couple of years ago a couple of folks hereabouts were having a heated discussion. One man shoots the other with a .25, other man takes exception to that and in turn shoots the first with a .45ACP tween the runnin lights. First man dead when he hit the ground..........second man died later from shoulder wound by .25. Deflected downward and clipped a major artery.

Gotta be a moral there somewhere.

Sam
 
The long sword, whether Katana or Tachi is considered an offensive weapon, while the wakasashi is a personal and defensive weapon, one to be carried on the person at all times. It was customary to leave the long sword at the gate of someone's household when visiting, but the wakasashi was allowed to be carried on a person for defensive purposes. Because of its length, it could be used in confined spaces like hallways as well as on one's knees.

As written above, one's class/station in life designated the right to carry one or two swords. Samurai declared their station in life by the wearing of two swords. Wakasashis were also useful in cutting off heads of the defeated after a battle.

There probably were plenty of fights and assaults having been fought with the wakasashi, they just weren't chronicled because these were either treacherous moments, or drunken brawls. -Japanese writings, like Norse sagas, just don't care about fights with daggers. No honor in the telling.

Incidentally, Japanese mobsters used to use wakasashi-sized swords in fights. I think they prefer guns nowadays.
 
Kaylee said:

"Musashi, if I remember correctly, pioneered a two-sword style of kenjutsu. In that sense, it wouldn't be so much like our carrying a backup piece than it would be like Correia doin' his Chow-Yun Fat two-pistol blast thing. "

Ahh, Chow-Yun Fatting it. :D Ineffective yet so fun!
 
Old school yakuza still carry shirasaya tantos in the waistband. Good for cutting off fingers (the penalty of screwing up) and for settling gambling disputes and debts, real or imagined. They also have katanas in the trunks of their cars (seen em) and they prefer Russian-made stuff like Tokarevs (cheap) and have been known to go on shopping trips to China (for guns) ...

I think by the way that the whole idea of Niten-ryu with katana and wakizashi both doesn't work well for most people. Musashi was known for great upper body strength so maybe for him. And as I understand he used it more to herd large numbers of opponents so he could cut them down single file. Skorzeny's right. In his important duels he never used anything other than one sword, and switched to a bokken later on.
 
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