Safety on or off?

L

LASur5r+P

New member
How many of you feel that there should be a positive safety on your semi-auto? as opposed to not having a thumb released safety on your weapons? (frame or slide?)

To me, that's my last means of defense before that gun is about to go "Bang!" When I snick off that safety, I know that it really is a deadly force situation...therefore, once that determination is made......no more hesistation, right?

Any opinions, comments, thoughts on this subject?
 
I don't know that it matters to me (manual safety or no safety).

I am perfectly fine carrying a DA revolver. If an auto has a similar trigger, I'm fine carrying it that way.
To me, that's my last means of defense before that gun is about to go "Bang!" When I snick off that safety, I know that it really is a deadly force situation...therefore, once that determination is made......no more hesistation, right?
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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "last means of defense"??

I wouldn't say there is no turning back once the safety is off. I'd say once you decide to pull the trigger the determination should be made.

Shake
 
You left out my favorite -- no safety -- DAO.

It avoids confusion. The pistol is always ready to fire by pulling the heavy, long travel trigger. There's never any doubt as to the condition as in "did I or didn't I engage the safety?" The mindset becomes loaded, ready, and deadly instead of loaded but safe.

You know that there are frequent reports of "empty" guns killing their owners who were just cleaning them. IMO, they get in a mindset that there is such a thing as a "safe" condition for pistols other than disassembled.
 
USPs and Beretta - safety NEVER on.

I am actually thinking of going to a variant (USP) w/out a safety.

Know where your finger is, know where it is pointed.
 
Whether or not you have a manual safety is not nearly as important as practicing with the firearm you have selected, and not EVER neglecting safety rules! I am a fan of the 1911 and DA revolvers, but I use my wheelguns for recreational use only. The only reason for this is that I have over 30 years experience with the 1911, I'm comfortable with it and I keep it cocked and locked. My wife has 5 years experience and keeps a loaded mag with an empty chamber because she is comfortable with it. Because of my experience, I would not feel very comfortable with a slide mounted safety, especially with one which could be engaged with the hammer down. Not to say they are bad, but that I'm not used to them and I do not want to be in the situation where I'm fumbling with the controls. Therefore, I would very likely carry one with the chamber empty on a loaded magazine until I was completely familiar and comfortable with it.
 
The only guns I feel comfortable carrying are my DAO's and I prefer them not to have any safties for me to have to muck with. If my gun comes out, I'm pulling the trigger. I don't want to worry about whether or not I accidently engaged the safty at some point.
 
Go Glock

The way I see it, it is virtually impossible for civilians to completely train and prepare for the conditions of live-fire combat. So one less thing to remember under the stress a life-threatening attack (e.g., disengaging a manual safety) is a good thing in my book.

That said, I'm curious why more people don't carry autos with the chamber empty. True, there's one less round on board. But with modern high-cap weapons, that isn't such a big-deal. True, you have to remember to rack the slide. (And yes, I do realize this statement is contrary to my first paragraph.) But racking the slide is easy to train to and you need to know the skill as second-nature as pulling a trigger anyway. It really isn't much of a speed disadvantage because you can rack the slide with one hand as you're bringing the weapon to bear on the target in one smooth motion. Plus, if feel you are entering a hostile enviroment, you can chamber a round in anticipation. And one cannot dispute the intimidation effect of hearing that slide ram home (although one should never expect intimidation to de-escalate a situation).

The only real disadvantage I see is if one hand is/becomes incapacitated.

Opinions?
 
SpyGuy,
IMO you are partially correct-you cannot completely train for the conditions of armed combat, but you can and should train for weapons handling as much as you should train yourself to stay aware of your surroundings in order to get yourself out of danger before your escape is cut off. Carrying with an empty chamber on an autoloader is slower than a trained person in a cocked and locked condition who removes the manual safety as part of their draw. In a condition one carry, you are very likely to get off one shot even if your weapon malfunctions for the 2nd shot. Seconds count-even a couple, and even a gross motor skill like racking the slide may well become a problem if the round does not chamber for whatever the reason.And racking the slide is not necessarily a good thing to do as you may draw the attention of someone you cannot see. Cocked and locked is for people who have and continue to train as well as for fools who want two cracks in their rear end. I've seen many people at a bullseye range pressing the trigger on an auto with the slide locked back (they don't click like they do in the movies-must be something wrong with the weapon!), and were embarrassed by it. Bullseye ranges DO play a part in learning what the weapon will and won't do. IDPA and other courses will develop and sharpen skills needed. True, nobody's shooting back at you, but when the time comes and you have been diligent in your practice, your training will take over.
 
I'll probably get flamed for this, but...

I almost never use the safety. (When I carry something besides Glock) I don't carry cocked, however my Colts have "combat hammers" and I've practiced a lot so I don't think I'd "flub". (I hope!!) I will never, EVER forget the security camera film of the jewelry store in Miami where the owner had been robbed six times. He went out and bought a pistol. He got training. In fact he got EXTRA training. The film showed a guy come into the jewelry shop and pretend he was looking around. The owner was watching him carefully. When the guy went for his own pistol, he was actually "out-drawn" by the shop owner. The camera was so clear, I could see the owners face and finger. He kept pulling the trigger of his auto. There was something else I could see. The safety was ON. The owner had carried "cocked and locked", but in the heat of battle, had also neglected (or missed) to snick off the safety! The robber had a revolver, but fortunately, didn't shoot the owner. Just grabbed him by the neck and pistol-whipped him. (Then stole the goods.)

KR
 
Qualification - I've no training in an actual stress situation, so weight my opinions accordingly -

I like cocked and locked in my 1911. I've trained enough with it so that locking as I holster, or unlocking on draw are normal reflexive actions. Never wonder if the thing is "safe". If there's one in the chamber (and there is) then it's cocked and locked. No questions, no surprises.

Practice, practice, practice. Come up with a system for all your pistols (/revolvers/long guns/etc) that has you train with each one such that it's always left in the same condition. If to you that means an empty chamber on your DAO and you rack the slide on draw, then always do it that way.

Consistancy is key.

All that said, I agree with David that racking a slide will be slower, and probably more obvious in a tense situation. Though here you may want to revisit my qualification. I'm thankfully not (yet?) in a position to do anything but guess how I'll react in a stressfire situation. I'd like to hope it's a bit more than simply wet my pants though. :)
 
LASur5r+P:

I'm comfortable carrying my M1911s cocked and locked. I'm also comfortable carrying my Kahrs or my Glocks.

"When I snick off that safety, I know that it really is a deadly force situation"

When I draw my M1911, as the gun passes through a 45 degree angle with the ground, I lower the safety. For me, the determination of a deadly force situation is when I draw the gun. If it isn't one, I don't draw. If I draw, the safety is lowered.

SpyGuy:

I agree that if one is carrying a Glock 17 with standard cap magazines, 1 round plus or minus is not an issue. With my 6+1 Kimber Compact, I sure do want that extra round.

I do not recommend carrying empty chamber. Yes, you can rack the slide quickly if you practice it. PROVIDED, of course, that you have 2 hands free to do so. My concern isn't that your support hand will become incapacitated. My concern is that your support hand will be busy doing something important, like pushing your wife to cover, picking up your small child, opening a door, or even fending off the perp. There are ways to rack the slide single handed, but they are neither fast nor particularly safe.

Regarding the idea that sometimes you would carry chamber empty and sometimes you would carry chamber full, I just shudder at that idea. Pick a way (condition 1, condition 2, or condition 3, if applicable to your gun), train that way ALWAYS, and carry that way ALWAYS. Because if TSHTF, you will fight the way you train. If you train to rack the slide as you draw, under pressure you will do that, whether the chamber is empty or full. And if you are now carrying cocked and locked, you'll likely be standing there trying to rack the slide on your 1911, and won't be able to because it is cocked and locked.

Kentucky Rifle:

I sure hope that your 1911s are series 80 and not series 70. The series 70 does not have a firing pin block. If you carry a series 70 hammer down on a full chamber, a sharp rap to the back of the hammer can cause a discharge.

Regarding your logic about why you carry hammer down (condition 2) rather than cocked and locked (condition 1), I'm afraid that I just don't understand your reasoning. You won't carry condition 1 because you think you might forget, under stress to lower the safety. If that's the case, why do you think you would remember to cock under stress? Or, to put it another way, if you think you can train yourself to manually cock the gun under stress, why do you think you can't train yourself to manually lower the safety under stess? Either way, hammer down or safety on, pulling the trigger won't do anything. So I don't see why you think condition 2 is more effective than condition 1. And with condition 2, you always have the possibility that you will slip and mess up while manually decocking, resulting in a discharge.

M1911
 
I chamber a round, decock, and safety off on my Taurus PT 100AFS. When its in the holster the safety stays off. I look at it this way, if a situation arrises that I have to draw my weapon in self defense then I want that weapon ready to roll at the pull of a trigger. I have always been tought that if you pull your weapon then you darn well better be ready to use it without hesitation. And thumbing the safety off first is something that would make me hesitate for a fraction of a second which might be too long in a defensive situation.

Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your biggest fear to come true :eek:
 
That said, I'm curious why more people don't carry autos with the chamber empty..... True, you have to remember to rack the slide. ... But racking the slide is easy to train to and you need to know the skill as second-nature as pulling a trigger anyway.

See post relating to jewelry store

It really isn't much of a speed disadvantage because you can rack the slide with one hand as you're bringing the weapon to bear on the target in one smooth motion.

Spoken like a man that has never done any 7 yrd and closer training. FWIW - the average person can cover 21 feet in less than 2 seconds. Secondly, on a personal note - once had a scumbag at my drivers window - my hand was in my shirt, USP half way out of the shoulder rig, if this guy who was about 2 feet away grabbed me or pulled on me - I would be hard pressed to draw, snick the safety off and fire while wrestling in my front seat - let alone rack the slide.

Plus, if feel you are entering a hostile enviroment, you can chamber a round in anticipation.

Will there be neon signs to warn me? Or will I get a memo a day in advance? Seriously, the only warning you are going to get is the heads up you give yourself. Unfortunately - it is a been there done that situation. If you have - you see the problem in advance. In not - you don't.

Carry like you mean it. Carry with one in the pipe. If that scares you - you should not carry. Practice, practice, practice........Until it does not scare you. Know where your finger is, know where the muzzle is - always.
 
Oops, I guess some clarification is in order...

First, I don't CCW as it is outlawed in the PRK and getting a permit in that bastion of leftist idiology known as the SF Bay Area is virtually impossible (unless you are a leftist democrat bigwig).

But if I did...since I own a Glock, I would carry a round in the chamber (with no manual safeties to worry about).

My question was really more hypothetical. The reason I asked it is because I hear a lot of people concerned about cocked and locked, uncocked and locked, uncocked and unlocked, etc, all to avoid an AD. There are also those who carry Glocks unholstered in their pockets or purses. So it seemed that carrying with an empty chamber might be a viable safety option for some people.

Anyway, I appreciate the responses. Good points on the close-quarters combat disadvantage and not having your spare hand free.

As far as the remarks about preemptive chambering, all I can say is the best offense is first a good defense. I pay close attention to my environment, my situation, and my "sixth-sense"; I always have a good idea when things start getting uncomfortable. Of course, the best course of action is to get out of the situation. But there are times when that option is not available. For example, I am a software consultant and some of my clients have offices in the "industrial" areas of San Francisco. Anyone who's been to SF in recent years knows that even the "nice" parts of downtown are heavily infested with vagrants and drug-addicted bums (I'd add metally ill, but that descibes the majority of SF's population). The outlying areas can be even worse with "cardboard cities" in empty lots, etc. Visiting my clients means driving and walking through some areas where I'd rather not be. That's what I mean about entering a hostile environment. Of course, there will be times when a bad situation develops rapidly and unexpectedly.

If you train to rack the slide as you draw, under pressure you will do that, whether the chamber is empty or full. And if you are now carrying cocked and locked, you'll likely be standing there trying to rack the slide on your 1911, and won't be able to because it is cocked and locked.
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Good thing I don't have a 1911 (although I would love to have one as a fun-to-shoot collector's piece). With the Glock, you can rack the slide all day long whether a round is chambered or not: all that'll happen is that you'll piss away live rounds. The slide is never locked.
 
Spyguy:

True, with a Glock you can always rack the slide. But my point remains. If you sometimes carry chamber full (and/or train that way), then one day you may draw, think that you have chamber full, but don't. You pull the trigger and nothing happens.

Don't complicate your life unnecessarily. You'll have more than enough things to worry about if TSHTF (cover, concealment, backstop, does the perp have a partner that I haven't seen), so why add the complication of maybe having a round chambered and maybe not?

Choose which condition you are going to carry, train that way, and carry that way, always.

M1911
 
I have a suggestion... go back through your original thought process to get to the original conclusion. Now, actually try to picture the stress level of a "deadly force" situation. If you think your brain will be functioning any higher than "point and pull" you are probably kidding yourself.

Get a revolver... they have the best safety (a 12 pound trigger pull). I watch those cop shows with the video tape from jewelry and convenience stores. I wish I had $1 for each owner I saw yanking the trigger on an auto with the safety on.... one robber walked over and took the gun away and couldn't figure out the safety so he pistol-whipped the poor guy with his own gun.
 
This came up in my CHL class on Saturday.

I believe the instructor said that if you want to defend yourself you should carry it "Ready to go"

Now, to me, that means I can flick my safety off with my shooting hand thumb and fire da on the first round.

However, if I'm carrying a wheel it's just pull the trigger.

My only concern with Glock-type trigger safety is something catching the trigger and getting an AD.

However, in demonstrations in the room, the instructor showed that you may want to do as many have said and just be ready to shoot without thinking....

So, now I want a HS 2000 with the grip safety and trigger safety combo....but that is heavy for concealed....

Ok, guess I carry the j-frame until I get a little carry semi-auto
 
I really think you are asking for trouble by carrying a semi-auto without a round in the chamber.

1. It will slow you down at LEAST a little. Are you certain that you will be able to afford that time in all situations? I think you need to be capable of firing a shot within 2 seconds of making that decision. I can do that most of the time (depending on the method of carry). I CAN not do that if I have to rack the slide first.

2. I agree that it might attract attention and bring other weapons to bear on you. It kinda says, "Hey, shoot me quick before I can get ready!"

3. What IF your hand slips off as you rack the slide or for whatever reason the gun jams when you try to chamber the round? I am not willing to take that chance. If my gun jams, it WILL be after at least 1 round is fired. (I have had my gun jam before as I racked the slide. I have NEVER had a jam after firing a shot.) I am SURE the one in the chamber will go.

4. What if you FORGET to rack the slide, pull the trigger and nothing happens? Will the BG agree to wait while you straighten everything out?

5. And... if I keep one in the chamber, I get an extra shot before having to switch magazines.

Just my opinion... above all be safe. I wouldn't do something I considered to be "dangerous". I intentionally bought a DAO with a long trigger pull just so I WOULD feel comfortable keeping a round chambered. (Otherwise I'd have bought the FIRESTORM single-action that I loved so much!)
 
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