safety features of 1858 remington

Can`t ya just see the head lines in the morning news print ....Armed homeowner shoots intruder with his cap and ball revolver and saves the state tax dollars ..the intruder was killed and cremated in one shot from his trusty 44 . Thanks to quick acting neighbor with garden hose most of the house was saved from the fire .....:D...........might need to rethink this black powder for home defence stuff ..
 
I am sure I am not the only one who thought

With any firearm there is at least some associated danger when it is loaded, but with black powder and substitutes is there not the additional danger of the powder itself which is more volatile than smokeless powder and more dangerous in the way it it packaged. (A pound of loose powder is easily detonated and packs a wallop!)

I agree with whoever said that a lot of education is in order.

As I do with any of my posts, because I am a novice I will solicite the thoughts of the experts. Am I overreacting to the powder issue?
 
is there not the additional danger of the powder itself which is more volatile than smokeless powder and more dangerous in the way it it packaged. (A pound of loose powder is easily detonated and packs a wallop!)
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I won't disagree with the 'more volatile' characterization since you didn't use a qualifier like 'much' or 'a lot more', etc.

But I'm not in agreement with 'more dangerous in the way it is packaged' and 'easily detonated'. I don't think it is. Can you explain how you came to those descriptions?
 
Sure...Here is my thought process.

Mykeal,

My initial reaction and my thought process as I made the comment came from a lot of assumptions that I and the other shooters made when I was involved previously. (mid 1970s). So when you questioned my comment, I thought, "Well everybody knows that black powder is more difficult to store and handle than cartridges."

Then I said, "Not so fast...That could be an old wives tail (Old wives get a bum rap.)"

So I did a little reading and a little talking and here is what I came up with.

Josh Grosse of International Practical Shooter's Confederations says, "“Black powder is messy, smelly, smoky, and corrosive, and not as safe to handle or store as smokeless powders.”

Unfortunately his comment is limited in its usefulness because he mentioned "smokeless powders" and not the cartridges that are loaded with smokeless powders. The other part of this is that I may be making a lot of incorrect assumptions about Josh Grosse's credentials. It would not be the first time someone got bad gouge from the internet.


I talked to the gentleman who operates the major gun shop in this area and he told me that the shipping requirements from the Virginia Department of Transportation are different for loose powder than for cartridges but he was at pains to describe whether the measures afforded more or less protection for loose power. This implies that the VDOT can not decide whether they think that loose powder is harder or easier to handle than cartridges.

Of more importance is the fact that the fire department places much more stringent storage requirements on black powder and the substitutes than they do on cartridges.

One of the things that was behind my "packaging" reference in my post is the fact that a little kid might look at a container of Pyrodex that has not been properly stored without realizing that it is dangerous. This is much the same issue as household chemicals stored under the sink in easy reach of toddlers. I do agree that a toddler with a bullet may be in as much danger as a toddler with a hand full of Goex. But at least he is not likely to mistake the bullet for Ovaltine. So now you come behind the kid and find black powder on the floor. I think it is logical to be more concerned than if you find a bullet on the floor. The bullet, you pick up. You slap the mess out of the kid for playing with the bullet, and you slap the mess out of the person who didn't properly store the bullet. The bullet goes back in the box. The kid goes back in the crib and the shooter stands with his nose in the corner for half an hour.

How is this process different if you find black powder (even a small amount) on the floor.

There are right ways and wrong ways to clean it up but they don't involve dumping it in the trash can or putting it back in the container, at least I don't think they do. Did I get it all? Did my kid eat any? If there is any under the couch that I missed and then someone goes over the area with a vacuum cleaner with an electric motor with brushes and slip ring what would be the impact? Perhaps the same as if they sucked up a .38 round.

I agree that the things around the house that will make powder detonate will also make a cartridge go off. But the way powder is packaged makes it more likely that powder will come into contact with those things than a bullet.

Keep in mind that we are not talking about things that are properly stored and handled. Part of the discussion centered around the fact that Tiberius' neighbor really should get a little training before he makes the next step.

This is where I am coming from.
 
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I didn't understand your reference to 'packaging' to be loaded cartridges. I assumed you were comparing apples to apples: loose black powder in a metal or plastic can vs loose smokeless powder in a plastic can. Certainly a loaded cartridge does an excellent job of containing the powder, better than a metal or plastic can with a screw on lid.

With regard to loose powder, the 'authorities' have enacted regulations that treat real black powder, synthetic black powders and smokeless powders in loose form differently. It was this difference that I assumed you were referring to as making black powder more dangerous.

With regard to loose powder only:

Black powder is classified as an explosive by BATFE, vs the substitute black powders and smokeless powders which are classified as a propellant. I understand this to be because of black powder's significantly lower ignition temperature. You grouped black powder and synthetic black powders together with regard to fire department storage requirements; in all the jurisdictions that I am aware of the storage regulations for real black powder are different, allowing the synthetic powders, and smokeless powders, to be stored in the open on store shelves while real black powders must be kept in a purposely designed magazine when in large amounts.

There is reasonable debate as to whether loose black powder is indeed more 'dangerous' than loose synthetic black or smokeless powders, the BATFE classifications notwithstanding. Goex had begun a letter writing campaign to the Treasury Department to get real black powder reclassified, citing a significant body of work attempting to show it posed no more a problem than the other powders in a real world situation (it's a bit silly to be concerned about the difference in ignition temperatures when structure fires are universally hotter than either ignition temperature by several factors). I'm unsure of the status of that effort now that Hodgdon has purchased Goex.

With regard to your scenario of a child spilling loose powder: I won't rant about the issue of storing powder (or household chemicals for that matter) in a manner that would allow that to happen. However, be aware that if the child spilled the powder and then lit a match to it, it would flash and burn quickly, probably causing 2nd (or rarely even 3rd) degree burns, but it would NOT explode. As to how to clean up loose powder: if it's on a hard surface, sweep up as much as possible with a straw broom, then wash the area down with soap and water and then squeegee the water up to remove the dust. If it's on a carpet, thoroughly wet the carpet and use a wet/dry vacumn to suck up the water. Then deal with the wet carpet in whatever manner appeals most.
 
I see the point of confusion

Mykeal,

I think we are on the same page. (Actually I should say that I am on your page.) I was attempting to draw a comparison between ammunition for cap and ball revolvers (Loose powder of whatever variety he chooses.) and ammunition for a cartridge revolver because initially, Tiberius' discussion and the coments that followed it involved only the weapons. I guess my point was that a large part of the precautions in any firearm have to do not just with the weapon but with the ammunition.

I am happy to ell you that I did read some of the stuff on the change of classification of Goex from (I believe) Chapter 1.1 to 1.3 of BATFE handling regulations. Seems like it might be a dead issue.

I also used the term "detonate" incorrectly in my original statement. I should have said "ignite".
 
If somebody were to go this route for HD. I'd recomment loading powder/dry wad/lubed wad/ball.

after capping, dripping candle was over cap.

store cylinder separate from frame.

This loaded cylinder would be fine for years from moisture.

The trouble is....does a child find the parts, can you find them if really needed for HD?

Kids are smart and putting things together is what we teach them from birth isn't it?? Round peg round hole???

Don't underestimate any of them.
 
I think your neighbor needs to stop makeing decisions based on fear or more to the the point fear of things that will never happen. I have three boy's and all have been raised around gun's. All of them understand that real guns are not toy's and they all understand what happens when you shoot something with a real gun. They never go near my guns unless I am with them. This is part of good parenting.

Obviously their are things you do not do with kids around. One of them is leaveing a gun lieing around loaded to tempt them. I have a friend that is single and all the guns in his house are loaded and he has on for just about every room. He has a CCW permit so he has a glock inbetween the seat's of his car etc....... So their is some common sense that has to be applied as well. I keep all my guns in a closet that usualy has winter or summer clothes in touts in front of it. None of my gun's is stored with ammo in it.

If this guy just wants to keep kids out of his gun's or in this case one pistol he should look at a lock box with those push button combo's. He can then keep the gun loaded and hiden out of sight locked away until he needs it for protection or to go to the range and practice.

My fellow American's we can not let fear take charge of our lifes. I too have in the past let fear take the steering wheel and it was not preety. Any time we hear the word fear or afraid more then once or twice in a paragraph that should signal our brain to start thinking. Not about the problem rather why we are giveing fear so much control or authority over our lifes!
 
with black powder and substitutes is there not the additional danger of the powder itself which is more volatile than smokeless powder and more dangerous in the way it it packaged.
Click to expand...

I may be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that black powder containers are specially made with "soft" tops or lids that well separate before the burning powder develops enough pressure to detonate. A pound of BP, in it's original container, exposed to a fire, well burn but not explode. I have three pounds stored at the foot of my bed, I guess I'll be the first to know if I'm wrong.
 
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