Safe primer storage

Can you clarify a few points for me? I want to make sure we're all on the same page, here:

Are you asking for specific parameters for storage of primers so you know EXACTLY how to store them to the letter of the law?

If so, is it for your own benefit/informational purposes in case you run into issues with, say, homeowners' insurance, etc.?

Also, are you asking in order to spec out a container to build to comply with said parameters? Or to find an approved container?
 
Shane Tuttle said:
Can you clarify a few points for me? I want to make sure we're all on the same page, here:

Are you asking for specific parameters for storage of primers so you know EXACTLY how to store them to the letter of the law?

If so, is it for your own benefit/informational purposes in case you run into issues with, say, homeowners' insurance, etc.?

Also, are you asking in order to spec out a container to build to comply with said parameters? Or to find an approved container?
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I would like to understand what the proper parameters for storage are, in particular what is mean my "sealed container" as it is just as vague as "wooden cabinet". I am hoping by understanding what the recommendations the reasons they were put in place. With this information i can assess my current storage method and see what if any improvements I need to make, and or am able to make.

I would be curious to see what an "approved container" is for DOT.

For the specs for SAAMI for storage its just a "1 inch thick wooden cabinet" to slow down burn in the event of a fire as I understand it. It could be build to size as needed but keeping it closed and little hands out, without creating a "sealed container" is the trick.
 
I think Unclenick's reference to humidity is as far as I would go. Humidistats in my home target a range from 35-50%, year-round. In dry winter, I use humidifiers in various floor levels, augmented by a humidity device connected to my propane fired furnace. In humid summers, my air conditioning takes care of that with the help of dehumidifiers if needed.
I'm not particularly focused on keeping my powder or primers in any sort of ideal condition, just an environment that is ideal for the family. I load shotshells in the garage where I have NO humidity control, so all powder and primers are store in my real reloading room where there is control. I just cart the primers and powder to the garage when needed.

I store my reloading room powders and primers in standard wooden kitchen cabinets, away from each other, of course. If there is any reason get more focused than that, I'm all ears.
 
cdoc42 said:
I think Unclenick's reference to humidity is as far as I would go. Humidistats in my home target a range from 35-50%, year-round. In dry winter, I use humidifiers in various floor levels, augmented by a humidity device connected to my propane fired furnace. In humid summers, my air conditioning takes care of that with the help of dehumidifiers if needed.
I'm not particularly focused on keeping my powder or primers in any sort of ideal condition, just an environment that is ideal for the family. I load shotshells in the garage where I have NO humidity control, so all powder and primers are store in my real reloading room where there is control. I just cart the primers and powder to the garage when needed.

I store my reloading room powders and primers in standard wooden kitchen cabinets, away from each other, of course. If there is any reason get more focused than that, I'm all ears.
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yeah, my house has some issues I am working on, humidity in the summers gets up into the 70% range if I am not careful and down into the 20% range in the winter. Not so much worries about the winter as the summer levels.

Kitchen cabinets are not a bad idea. I think the 1" thick was to slow down fire. You could add drywall as an extra layer, but that stuff really seems to hold moisture. I can never seem to get one of my safes to dry all the way out, and it has that stuff in it.
 
Reading your past posts, I saw you reload for rifle. If you push the envelope on cartridge performance, I would follow Unclenick's advice regarding humidity control.

Regarding specific on proper storage other than the "cool, dry place" mantra: SAAMI can't even provide absolute specifics on anything other than their '1 inch' rule. In my opinion (based on nothing more than common sense and personal experience), build a good, sturdy container based on Unclenick's parameters and you'll be GTG.

I personally don't like storing primers/powders in plastic containers unless it's made specifically to resist static electricity build-up. I say that because I caution against just any plastic storage container. Your MTM brand and equivalent plastic boxes are fine.

I store my primers in a metal locker in contact with the concrete in my vault.

In the end, seeing how careful you are in researching the proper storage, use the info from Unclenick and use your best judgment. You're doing more than 99% of other peoples' choices (in this world, not necessarily members, here), if any, in being prudent in storing.
 
Anecdote Alert:

I once received a case of 5000 primers and was horrified to find the box was wet. I assume the UPS truck had a rain leak.
The 1000 count boxes were damp. Before I freaked out and tried to get a claim from UPS, I opened a tray and set it on the counter in my air conditioned shop. A couple of days later I loaded them up. They all fired normally.
So I opened two more and let them dry. Every time I used 100, I opened another tray and set it out to dry. There were no misfires.
 
I use 20mm ammo cans....been doing it this way for 40 yrs. Never a problem
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That was the mantra of the space shuttle, Never had a Problem Until...........

TWA 880 was a once off but .......

Not to be snarky, its called a toggle action. Also referred to as normalizing deviation (from a known safe standard to over the edge)

So my question and or issue with a 20 mm ammo can is does it create both too many in location as well as containing to created a small bomb?

I keep mine separated into two different drawers which are 15 feet apart.

As a side note, I worked at an air shipping company. We had 6 pallets of Torp X or some such come through. Its ok, you have to have a shatter pop to set them off.

Me? Yea I am techy and was an engineer but I stayed in the other end of the facility until they left. Anyone ever test this stuff around Ramp Rats?
 
Norma says taking a powder from 80% RH to near 0% RH causes about a 12% increase in burn rate, so if you don't want to obsolete your load data, you don't want your powder too dry anymore than you want it too wet. I assume primers like the same sort of environment.
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Its why I love science and data. (Thank you Unclenick and Norma!)

So lets do the realistic math.

I live in a relatively (pun) dry place. 50% humidity. Whats the burn rate change if I leave it out and it stays at 50%? Not much.

90% certainly is not uncommon in Mid West, South East, Texas gulf etc.

Easier to acclimate the powder, then shoot to the new miner change burn rate.

Now, put in a desiccant. That an take humidity down to -80 (been there, done that, have T shirts).

Then take out your power and its going to absorb moisture (is that working the grains good?) and you wind up with (12% change) but maybe not dependence on how long its out and how much it re-adjusters.

Leave it as is and you are better off quality control wise for a pretty steady burn rate as the humidity difference is low, the transfer rate is low (the bigger the difference the higher the transfer rate)

If you are doing one hole groups, get a Labrador and it will tell you what your velocity change is if any and you can adjust (on site or to pre load that is in the middle of the velocity changes and tolerant)
 
Well I guess we all take some risk with a lot of things we do.....ammo can with primers....or how about a plastic gas can or two in the garage full of gasoline????... Never had a problem until???
Or maybe an extra propane tank or two for the grill stored in the garage....never had a problem until one time...BOOM...ever see one blow....quite the explosion

I have 400 gal fuel tank out by the barn.... I dont think to much about it,, but I guess it could go boom too

Probably lots more things in our every day life that could blow up if you sit down and think about it...I'm pretty comfortable with my ammo cans..I just offered up how I have been doing it for a long time.....and SO far SO good...but life is life...and you just never know.. anything Could happen at any time.....I never would say this is how YOU have to do it

If by chance something really bad did or does happen in the gun room...at this place...I really hope I'm outside.....cuz its gonna be a show...I live pretty far out...so the chance of the volunteer fire department getting here to save it is pretty dang slim

So where do we draw the line???

Just saying....

Ocharry
 
My take is you reduce risks as much as possible and the rest is out of our hands.

Avoid the obvious ones, you are way ahead.
 
Hell... Going to town these days is about as big a risk as I can stand

I saw a guy walk right into a big yellow post the other day...yep he was playing with his phone....he got kinda pissy cuz I was laffing at him

For sure safety is on all of us...along with awareness and self responsibility

Always tried to think things through...less risk is a good thing

Ocharry
 
BUT ,,,, SOMETIMES....you can cross ALL the T's and dot ALL the I's....and things still go south.......only you know what is the least amount of risk YOU are willing to take

Ocharry
 
Plastic bucket storage in a basement sounds pretty reasonable to me. Cool, dry, lid that can pop off. What's not to like about that plan. I think the key is not stacking 50,000 primers in a bucket and calling that safe storage. I think spreading the primers out in many containers be it plastic buckets or plastic ammo cans makes storing them safer.
 
I just stack them on the shelve in the boxes they came in....just like they do at the store I bought them from.....works for them so I see no reason why it needs to be any different.
 
I think the issue of humidity and burn rate is of interest mainly because you want a sense of how much change there might be from what was used by the powder company to develop their load data.

A note on "sealed" containers. Having got a number of patents related to holding a vacuum in an industry where that mattered, I can say with some authority that no rubber or plastic material is absolutely free of water vapor transmission. A sealed glass or metal envelope (laser-welded stainless steel shim stock works quite well) will hold a vacuum long term, but not plastics. To make plastic films close to impervious to water vapor and oxygen and nitrogen requires multiple combined layers with at least vacuum deposited aluminum layers if not low pinhole count foils. Water molecules are really small, and in vapor form where they are separate and surface tension keeping them in droplets, they go past bullet and primer interfaces with brass cases and they transport through plastics and rubber seals by diffusion. It's slow, but it isn't zero, and anything inside plastic containers or behind rubber seals, while well-protected from liquid water, will eventually equilibrate to the outside atmospheric RH as if no protection had been there in the first place. It's just a matter of waiting.

Norma puts it at about a year for loaded cartridges. How long it would take for a can of powder, I would have to measure. A larger volume of powder can absorb more, but I would expect something on the order of a six-month to a year sort of time frame for a jar with an intact seal.
 
Don't overthink simple things.
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+1 . Two pages here and not done yet! Mine are simply stored (in their original boxes) across the room from the powder in my basement. Some are in drawers, some sitting on the bench. Nothing 'sealed'. No worries.
 
Would not the normal yearly fluctuation of humidity and pressure changes help to drive diffusion to some "average" level in plastic storage containers? In California our summer humidity is usually under 50% with 20% being common. I try not to open long term storage in the winter when humidity may be pushing 90% plus. But even in a plastic container with diffusion taking place, I would think the protection from the "extremes" would last long enough to protect ammo and components from drying out or becoming wet. I think the biggest danger of using a sealed container is with extreme temperature fluctuation causing actual condensation within the walls of the container. For example if you close the box in your steamy kitchen in the middle of winter and put it out in your -15 degree garage, you may likely find water damage to contents in the spring when the temperature is 80 degrees and you don't see any visible water in the container. Another tid bit to consider is that cardboard tends to trap moisture and release moisture. While not a dessicant, it can prevent some liquid droplets from forming in a sealed container. So storing in original packaging may be of some benefit. The Russians sure like to put brown paper between their cartridge layers. May that have dual benefits for moisture protection and abrasion? While if I was going to long term store ammo or primers/components in a swamp in Louisiana the gradual humidification of the inside of a safe or ammo box might be valid, in many parts of the country the yearly average humidity however may make diffusion insignificant!
 
I've been storing my primers on a shelf in a closet in my basement for the better part of 30 years.

Humidity can be a bit high in my basement in the summer, but I've never seen any issues at all.

A sealed container is, to me, one that would allow the pressure from detonating primers to be contained to a point that it becomes more of a bomb. Think a metal ammo can, a locked filing cabinet, etc. Even a heavy wood cabinet with a tightly sealed door could be considered to be a sealed container.

A cardboard box that's been taped shut? No. That's not a sealed container.
 
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