Sad story, tragic accident

Jhp147

New member
The hospitalized brother has died, but the web page is behind. Late news had an update, I'm posting it because it may go national wire service as an anti-gun story (even though it was a rifle, not handgun) due to the coming elections. Tragic is all I can say because nothing worse comes to mind...maybe sickening. If you have seen it on a wire service, here is the local version: www.amarillonet.com/stories/100800/new_shootingkids.shtml
Hope the link works.

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Shamans emerge whenever certain needs remain unanswered...Mark Levy

[This message has been edited by Jhp147 (edited October 08, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Jhp147 (edited October 08, 2000).]
 
I'm sure Gore will use the tragedy if he finds it advantageous. :(

Sunday, October 8, 2000
2:17 a.m. CT

Shooting victim, 13, remains in critical


By HOLLY PARKER
Globe-News Staff Writer

David Carrera, the 13-year-old boy shot along with his brother in their home Friday, remained in critical condition in a medically induced coma Saturday at Northwest Texas Hospital.

Robert Carrera, 11, was dead when his stepmother, Debra Carrera, found the brothers bleeding in their bedroom at about 10 a.m.

The family's small caliber rifle was probably used to commit the shootings, said Potter/Randall Special Crimes Unit Coordinator Lt. Ed Smith.

The brothers were home alone when the shooting occurred, and investigators said no one broke into the home. But Smith wouldn't confirm the brothers were playing with the gun when it went off.

"It's too early to tell at this point," Smith said.

The rifle was found in their room nearby.

Robert Carrera's body was taken to Lubbock where examiners conducted an autopsy Saturday morning, Potter County Justice of the Peace Jim Tipton said.

Tipton had not received autopsy results by late Saturday, he said. Preliminary results should be available Monday, Tipton said.

David Carrera will likely stay in the pediatric intensive care unit several days while doctors keep him in an induced coma, the family said.

Debra Carrera was at work Friday morning when she called her stepsons to make sure they were doing their chores but got no answer. She drove to their home, 3616 S.E. 16th Ave., and found the shot boys inside with the gun nearby.

The boys were home Friday because Amarillo Independent School District schools were observing a teacher staff development day.

The family moved into the Humphrey's Highland Elementary School neighborhood in June and bought their two-bedroom home, said a neighbor who sold them the house.
 
Had this happened in Florida, the parents would be charged under the law concerning negligence in storing guns so that children have access. I know a lot of TFLers object to all gun laws on principle, but I happen to think that this is a good law. A gun owner is responsible for securing his/her guns from unauthorized use.

I know the parents of these kids must be grieving and heartbroken, but they really should have secured that rifle from unsupervised access by and 11 and 13 year old.
 
David Scott,

NO!

The best security against the abusive use of a firearm is education. Children will find a way when they are curious about something. Remove the curiosity by educating them and giving them experience under supervision that teaches them respect.

There is no legislation that can replace it.

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...
 
Update on www.amarillonet.com shows the older boy died, Justice of the Peace said it was an accidental death/suicide. We have a child access law in Texas, it didn't stop this. For MOST people, the loss of a child is more punishment than the system can dole out, but there are be some types who at least react to the threat of jail. Education is great, the best preventative, but not foolproof....especially with a teenage boy, unsupervised, in a home with a gun accessible. Educate, supervise, and as we know, lock 'em up if they aren't under your immediate control. That won't stop all of the acts of violence (witness Jonesboro) but it may prevent acts of immaturity and ignorance. I mainly posted this in case, as Gunslinger mentioned, the wires picked it up and tried to use it to Gore's advantage....Bush's home state and all.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunslinger:

The brothers were home alone when the shooting occurred, and investigators said no one broke into the home. But Smith wouldn't confirm the brothers were playing with the gun when it went off.
[/quote]

Damn, another gun shooting all by itself with noone at the trigger. :(
 
Education is worthy but you cannot always trust kids. How many of you sneaked a drink from your old man?

I prefer restricted access over trusting the best kid.

The down side is that there are instances when the kid uses the family gun to protect themselves.

Tough call and there isn't a right answer.

Personally, I locked up the guns around the kids. Me and wife knew the combinations.
Also, we carry when home, so we have immediate access :)
 
You can trust a kid... if he's taught correctly.

The best training is often shock training - especially before the age of reason.

True story: An Army buddy & I (up in AK) were cleaning our personal weapons after a day at the range. His 2y/o son watched us very intently, not coming near the weapons. As we were finishing up, the child asked if he could hold/play with one of the pistols. As we had just completed cleaning them, and knew positively that all ammunition was in another room (except in what we were each personally carrying...) and that he would be under our intense scrutiny we agreed.

Being a healthy young male, he went directly for the .44 Redhawk. We watched with pride as he carefully picked up the weapon and, in his little hands, pointed the monstrous gun in a safe direction. Our pride turned to amazement however when we watched this child, who had no mechanical understanding of guns, (no TV in the home and never having watched us do more than clean them) realize he could not pull the heavy double of the .44, turn the gun over to put the spur on the ground, lever the hammer back into full cock, return the pistol to a firing attitude/safe direction and successfully drop the hammer on an empty chamber.

My buddy & I looked at each other, packed up the .44 and took the child to the range.

At the range, we put hearing protection on the boy, sat him in his father's lap, put the .44 on a rest with a loaded cylinder, cocked the gun, and told the boy to do exactly as he had done at home. The tot pulled the trigger - on a full-house load. (Daddy only ensured that the gun did not embed itself in anything important and that the downrange was safe.)

When the dust had settled, we put the gun away and looked the kid straight in the eyes and asked him "Do you still want to play with guns?" - his reply, with eyes still big as gongs, "I don't want to play with guns 'till I'm big like daddy!"

In the following years (till I lost touch with them) the kid maintained a healthy, positive interest in his father's shooting (we competed IPSC), but he never "played" with a gun, toy or real, again.

Respect - not fear of or isolation from - keeps kids from doing wrong with guns.


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_______________________

HONOR PRAE OMNIBUS
INIURIA MINIMA OMNIBUS
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Honor Before All
Doing Least Harm Always
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Folks,
Access laws can lead to the death of our children, just as allowing guns to lay around the house can. Check this link to an article posted by FUD http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=39785

I want my daughters to be able to defend themselves if need be, but the State of NJ says that I must lock up my guns, so I do. Should I tell them the combination to the safe and risk a tragedy, or leave them defenseless, and risk a different kind of tragedy? Yes they've been trained. Yes they know not to touch the guns unless under my direct supervision. I have my solution, but what would you do in a state with child access laws?
 
Never snuck a drink, never had a drink, never want a drink. My mother when I was about 11 said to me that if I ever wanted to drink, she would go purchase what I wanted and I could drink it in the house. Of course I was raised being taught that the consumption of alcohol was not desirable, therefore her offer was never taken up on, as it defused any desire I might have had to partake.

Same with drugs. My father is an MD and we had all kinds of drugs and needles in the house freely accessable to us six kids.

I had a simular experience with my father. The day before I entered Middle School, my father told me that I would soon encounter other kids in school that would offer me drugs and drink. He and my mom taught us about the pitfalls of drugs as well. At that time he was talking to me, he said, "If you make a decision now about how you are going to handle such a situation and what your response will be, you will never have to make that decision again, and if you choose at this time not to engage in those activities, it will be so much easier on you when the choice is presented to you."

Those opportunities came and proved, time and time again, the wisdom that my father taught me that night.

Of the six children that they had, none have reached for a bottle or a needle, or an unnecessary or recreational drug.

We did have one foster child that stayed with us a short time, and she attempted suicide using the drugs that were in the house. She did not stay with us long after that.

It has been the same with the guns that were never locked up in my father's house. He taught us how to use them properly, and the power that they afforded the user.

I had a .22 rifle in my room with my own ammunition. I had a .50 cal. black powder cannon that I made in shop at school (Jr. High) that I kept in my room along with fuse and black powder I purchased at the local hardware store. I went up the hill and shot in an old tailings pit, carrying my gun over my shoulder. The neighbors never called the police.

My children are taught the same things, and will recieve the same wisdom that my parents taught me.

We remove the mystery of the gun by getting them out whenever they ask to see them. We check them to clear them then teach them to do the same when they recieve them. They handle them and operate them, and are taught their power in a very visual and compelling way when they are old enough. (bagged game makes the point quite well.)

They are taught the four rules, the oldest can recite them without prompting.

In today's society this may be an amazing thing. In days not so long ago, it was standard practice.

It's such a shame to see how far we've slipped in such a short time.

No, parents don't need to be fined, jailed, or demonized, they just need to get their heads on straight and teach their children.

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited October 09, 2000).]
 
The problem with restricted-access laws is that they don't make allowances for individual situations. They're one size fits all.

The real question is whether your children are your responsibility ... or whether they are the responsibility of the nanny state. To whom do the children belong?

If the State is responsible for them, then the State should pass laws restricting their access to firearms. After all, the government simply can't know each child well enough to know at what age and in which situation the child will behave safely, so a one size fits all law is a good idea.

But I believe that my kids were given to me to raise responsibly, and any attempt by the nanny state to dictate the way I rear my children is both an insult to my intelligence and an affront to my freedom.

pax

"After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it." -- William Burroughs
 
John/az2: While I agree with you, I would like to point out one thing. It sounds like you had loving, supportive, intelligent parents. Evidently these boys were not quite so lucky, in more ways than one. The world is quite different these days and a lot of kids raise themselves and their siblings. I too, had access to guns as a kid but I had two parents and both of them would kick my butt for getting out of line. Back then guns were tools used mainly for hunting and defense, they were not fashion statements.
I am a parent of two little ones, they will learn to handle guns but they will be locked up if I am not there.
 
I agree that educaiton is the best way in which to keep young people, including children, from mis-using fire arms. We are childless; however, sometimes we do have children in the house. I have a locked gun cabinet that has a glass front. Is that protection? What also concerns me is that some legislatorcritter will pass a law, if it hasn't already been passed, that says that you must have your guns in a "safe" or else you will be held responsible for what happens to them if they are stolen. Then what constitues an approved safe that will be accepted by law? will that safe still be an approved safe in the future?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ATTICUS:
John/az2: While I agree with you, I would like to point out one thing... The world is quite different these days and a lot of kids raise themselves and their siblings... [/quote]

Yes, Atticus. I believe I mentioned that we've slid a loooong way. :( Oh, for the good o'l days. :)


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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...
 
I posted this at the Range House last week. I debated putting it here because I felt it could be exploited by someone lurking. But it's important enough that I think I should. I was pretty upset at the time, so excuse any rambling there.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This weekend, one of my son's friends killed his best friend, accidently. Shot him in the chest with his dad's handgun. The shooter was 12, the kid that died was 13. These weren't little freaks of nature. The kid who shot him knew gun safety, grown up around guns, they took hunter's safety together. Sweet little chubby guy. His
parents are great people, involved in his life, best scout leader my kid ever had. Spent all their time with their kids,
camping, hiking, you name it. They did everything right. Now,..so many lives are ruined. One boy is dead. One has killed his best friend. Parents going through hell, one set may be going to prison. For one stupid move. You can say, yes, they should have had the guns put away. Do you always? Do I? If I do, couldn't they get to them anyway, with a little effort?

This could have been me. I just keep thinking that. I would never in a million years be concerned about my kids. They KNOW the rules, damn it. So did these guys. The whole thing has just blown my mind. No law would have
prevented it..but could anything? It hasn't changed my mind about RKBA..I realize that's more than the life of one person..but..hell, I don't know. Just don't think it can't be you. No matter how safe you feel, it can still be you. Even if you do every freaking thing you know to do. I don't have any answers here. That's the problem. There are
no answers. [/quote]
 
John/az2, you have done it again. Such a beautiful post! :D I was raised in the same manner and I thought so highly of it that it will be used on my children. Allbeit, NOT six of them. :D

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President, FUD's Fan Club.
 
KaMaKaZe,

:D Any number of children is good. They have taught me much about life.

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John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

See The Legacy of Gun Control film at: www.cphv.com

Do it for the children...
 
Couple things in connection to "kids" and guns.

At what age do farm kids start operating tractors, combines, and such on a farm? Or dealing with cattle, horses, etc that are dangerous? On their own with no supervision?

Household chemicals kill how many little kids every year? Do we have laws requiring them to be locked up?
 
I'm not sure I see your point. Of course kids use tractors or guns or cars. They also occasionally die from using those things, even if they have been raised around them and know better than to do something stupid. I'm not asking for a law to protect our children, that is our job. But, seriously, this happened, it happened to someone I know and it sucks. I'd just like to remind everyone that you can't always gun proof a kid. Everytime I've seen one of these stories, it's been "hey, they should have trained them". That's probably what many of you are thinking right now. But damnit, these guys were trained. They were also kids and kids do thing they aren't supposed to. Maybe I'm still pretty emotional over the whole thing, how could I not by? Why would I not be? I was dead serious when I said that no matter how safe you are, you can't always be sure. If that little piece of advice offends anyone, or makes them uncomfortable, so be it. It makes someone sit back and say hmm..am I as safe as I should be? then that's a good thing, wouldn't you say?
 
(I AM NOT A LAWYER AND THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE)

The Florida law does not tell you how to store your guns, only that you are liable if a kid gets hold of them. There can be no charges until there is an incident of some kind with the kid and the gun. If you hang them on the wall, fully loaded, no trigger locks, but you have taught your kids that they are not to be handled without adult supervision, you will be OK so long as the kids do as they were taught.

IMHO it's a parent's job to know their kids and decide what storage measures they should take. There was a loaded, unlocked gun in my house all the time my son was growing up and he never touched it because we raised him properly.

On the other hand, a parent whose kid is a known belligerent, been in trouble at school for picking fights, or has a substance abuse problem, ought to smell the coffee and lock up the guns. If they leave a gun out and the kid takes it and commits a crime, I think the parents are guilty of contributory negligence. A lot of cases are decided based on what a "reasonable person" would do, and I don't think a reasonable person would allow a problem kid access to weapons.
 
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