Sacrificing power for accuracy/vice versa in SD load?

M

mj246

New member
At what point do you use a weaker load for better accuracy?

Specifically, I have just started reloading again for my Charter Bulldog 2.5" DAO 44 special. I bought 200 of the Speer GDHP 200gr .429 bullets, had some Hunter's supply 200gr LRNFP on hand from my first adventures in reloading several years ago and am currently testing loads with Titegroup and Power Pistol.

So after testing a few loads, I have found that my Bulldog really likes a load of 5.6gr of Titegroup under the GDHP. I also am good with 7.6gr of Power Pistol. (The load data is from the Speer website for these bullets)

So the issue is this: I do not have a chronograph, but the Power Pistol load should be getting roughly 30-40fps more than the Titegroup load according to Speer's data. However, Today I was getting ~2" five-shot groups at 7 yards with the 5.6gr of Titegroup and ~3" five-shot groups with the Power Pistol. I know neither of these are amazing for some people, but are both quite good groupings for me with a SD load. I consistently got 4-5" groups shooting the Underwood Bulldog specific GD load I previously had (which is definitely more powerful and harder recoiling than either of these loads tested).

The question is: Would any of you give up say about 40FPS MV from a snub 44spl to have 2" or smaller groups vs a 3-3.5" group, or would you give up the smaller groupings and faster followup shots for an increased chance of the HP expanding given that these loads are likely around the minimum published velocities for guaranteed expansion and even 3.5" puts all five shots within center mass?
 
I wouldn't give up on the Underwood if it is notably more powerful.
It's not Bullseye competition shooting, it's stopping an attack shooting.
BTW, do you have any factory specs. on the Underwood ammo you mentioned. I don't see anything likeit on gheir website.
 
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My thinking is that as long as the grouping somewhat resembles a 12 ga pattern, you are good to go.
Pour on the power!
Speed has to factor in there also. We are talking about grains per second.

Best,
Rick
 
That difference in power is negligible for SD. That's a big heavy bullet. 40FPS is neglible to expansion or penetration
 
I doubt superb accuracy is a major factor in a self defense situation. I doubt law enforcement or a jury is going to think much of a self defense claim if the threat is of significant distance from you.

Then, I have also read you should give considerable thought to using factory ammunition in your self defense firearms. The rationale offered by experts and/or lawyers is to protect against civil suits vs. a grand jury or criminal trial. It seems a jury might be influenced by the use of hand loads. I would not be if on a jury, but it is another thing to consider.

You can drop down to the "Law and Civil Rights" section of the Forum to read more and get a better explanation of what I am referring to in the above statement.
 
Cheapshooter,

It seems Underwood took the 44spl GD loads off the website. It was rated at 975FPS from a 3.25" S&W Model 396, and was specifically made to stay in the correct pressure range for Bulldogs and other light, small frame 44s. The problem is that the recoil is still pretty battering in the lightweight bulldog. Followup shots were almost non-existent with that load. Hence me looking for more manageable ones now that I can load my own again.

I think my original inclination to stick with the Power Pistol for the SD load is probably the right way to go. 7.6gr is the start load, so once I practice to manage that recoil more, I can bump it up to 7.8gr or more as long as it doesn't delay or off-set the followup shots too much. Then it will be right between the power of the Speer/CCI version of the GD and the discontinued Underwood load.

Plus I'll still use the Titegroup for my practice loads with the LNRFP that has almost the exact same POI as the GD loads.
 
lamarw,

I am aware of the idea of sticking to factory ammo for SD to avoid extra legal hassles. However, I have yet to see proof of a case where the verdict was ever affected by a shooter using his own ammunition vs factory ammo. I'd be very interested if anybody does have such information.
 
Now you've opened a can of worms. There will be a couple of lawyers along here shortly than can cite some cases that are not EXACTLY about handloads vs. factory, but I know there's one cite in which a fellow was convicted based on the fact he used hollow point bullets in a SD shooting that the jury felt was justified. They felt the HP bullet was "over the top".

There's no right answer. Remember, those who will judge you may be very under-educated about such things as ballistics..................
 
40FPS MV won't make a lick of difference one way or the other. Chances of you getting 2" or smaller groups out of a 2" .44 are slim anyway.
5.6 grains of Titegroup is a tick over max according to Hodgdon. Only .2 though. Get that much difference with a different powder lot.
Look here at the velocity difference between a 2 and 3 inch barrel.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/44special.html
"...jury might be influenced...he used hollow point bullets..." If a jury is influenced by that it's because the prosecuting lawyer was better at his job than the defence lawyer was at his.
 
My only concern comes from my experience using Titegroup for many years. It is very temperature sensitive.
 
The question is: Would any of you give up say about 40FPS MV from a snub 44spl to have 2" or smaller groups vs a 3-3.5" group, or would you give up the smaller groupings and faster followup shots for an increased chance of the HP expanding given that these loads are likely around the minimum published velocities for guaranteed expansion and even 3.5" puts all five shots within center mass?
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Self defense is an entirely different animal than target shooting. So is combat. A bud of mine, a target shooting bud of mine, is a Vietnam Combat Veteran. He has the Combat Infantry Badge and was on many combat drops. His favorite rifle was the full auto M14, the M14E2. It does not take much prompting before he will show you a picture of himself with that rifle. I asked him about sighting in before a combat drop, and he said all the rifle had to do was "minute of oil drum". If he could hit an oil drum at 50 yards, that was good enough for him. I don't think he ever had a shot that required precision or extreme precision.

Thunder Ranch starts with the students touching the silhouette with one hand. You pull your gun, shoot fast, as you back away from the silhouette. Self defense distances are spitting distances. You will be lucky if you have time to align front and rear sight before you fire your first shot. When they get you back to 15 yards, you will have shot so much ammunition up close, that 15 yards feels like a half mile.

So, in my opinion, go for the power. If the tradeoff is half an inch, an inch verses an increase in velocity, go for the velocity increase. The accuracy advantage will not come into play at distances where you leave powder burns on the target.
 
I do to a degree...

Hollow points are listed by most manufacturers as needing 800+ fps for reliable expansion.

Out of my 4" Springfield Armory Champion (yes, 45ACP) I usually go for about 875-900 fps over a chrony at 10 ft. for 185gr. bullets.
There are powders that can push this faster, but I don't care for the added recoil, and loss of accuracy.

Most of my practice/plinking loads are LSWC at about 800 fps, with a couple of mags of the defensive stuff added in, just to make sure I'm hitting with the faster rounds.
 
I have been reloading and chronographing loads from load manuals for years and I can tell you that just because the book says you are getting a certain velocity that doesn't always make it true. And thats with rifles and pistols.

Without chronographing YOUR loads from YOUR gun you are just guessing at best. Barrels are different. Powders vary from one lot to another. Case tension can make a difference. The book loads really just give you a starting point.

You can buy a Chrony for under a hundred bucks. If you are going to reload you really should own one.
 
per MJ246

"The question is: Would any of you give up say about 40FPS MV from a snub 44spl to have 2" or smaller groups vs a 3-3.5" group, or would you give up the smaller groupings and faster followup shots for an increased chance of the HP expanding given that these loads are likely around the minimum published velocities for guaranteed expansion and even 3.5" puts all five shots within center mass?"

The answer is NO!. For defensive purposes, that difference in group size is meaningless. A 3" group at 7yds is still more than MOM at 25yds. Does 40fps mean lot? I doubt it, but why give it up for your defensive loads.

As others have said though, without a chronograph to confirm your actual velocity, you are really just guessing as to what your gun and your load really does.
 
Thank you all for the info and recommendations.

Obviously, needing to shoot your gun in SD is a very, very different beast than slow fire at the range. That being said, I also know that you do not want your defense loads to be too inaccurate because then you will be much less likely to hit a vital area and stop a determined attacker.

It seems the consensus is that with the difference in accuracy and theoretical MV I'm looking at here, probably better off using the more powerful load for the possible extra edge. The difference between say 750fps and 790fps could mean something when the bullet expands at about 775fps. But again, this is all theoretical until I can get and use a chronograph.




T. O'Heir,

Just to clarify, the max load given on the Hodgdon website is for a Nosler JHP with 1.46" COL, while Speer did their own testing using the 200gr GD in question and a 1.49" COL listing a start load of 5.3gr and a max of 6.1gr. Since I'm using Speer's bullet, I pushed my COL out to 1.495" (to accommodate small differences in case length) and am using their data. The cases and primers are showing no signs of over pressure and recoil in the light bulldog was very tolerable.

Edit to add: Here is a link to Speer's reloading info for this specific bullet: http://www.speer-bullets.com/pdf/reloadingsupplementaldata/44_200gd.pdf
 
I guess when I look and see 40FPS when we are talking a baseline of around 800FPS? I'm not seeing the major difference. What are we losing 40FPS from?

For instance if I get hit by a semi-truck at 50MPH the results are likely no different than if it is going 55MPH
 
Titegroup is a faster burning powder than Powder pistol which is desirable in a short barrel. I've never used Titegroup but I have used Power pistol. I think the reason your getting better groups with the faster powder is because it burns more efficiently in the short barrel. I'm betting 90% burn with Titegroup and maybe 75% with Power Pistol. You are probably not getting the extra velocity you think you are with Powder Pistol. I've only used Powder Pistol in 45ACP and 10mm, so I'd be real interested in seeing some chrno data from someone with experience using the two.
 
I think the reason your getting better groups with the faster powder is because it burns more efficiently in the short barrel.
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I think the reason is because he is above the start load for Titegroup but right at the min for Power Pistol. Very seldom do I find my best accuracy from handguns from min loads, especially when the recipes have anemic start charges like Speer generally does. Accuracy generally improves with velocity for a point before it drops off again. As for which powder is more efficient in a 2.5 " barrel, I doubt that is a factor at all when it comes to contributing to accuracy.

That said, I myself would rather shoot 2'' groups @ 7 yards with a snubbie than 3'', especially when there is so little difference in velocity. Those .44Sp Gold Dots should open up properly right around 800 FPS. I would go with my most accurate load that produces at least that much velocity since those bullets are designed to expand at a fairly low velocity. If you notice the .44 mag loadings from the PDF you linked to, they are kept to mediocre velocities to keep from blowing apart on impact. If you saw the pics of the expanded bullets on the same link, you'll see they were fully expanded a a modest 843 FPS. Any more expansion and they are likely going to fragment, lose weight and reduce penetration.

I would also pick a powder based on low flash than because of burn rate. I'd rather not take a blind follow up shot. I would rather have a pleasant to shoot SD load than one that hurts to practice with. I'd rather have a small hole in the BGs chest than a huge hole in their arm. I'd rather have the opportunity to put 3 rounds quickly into the BGs chest if he was on top of me pounding my head against the asphalt than have a heavy recoiling gun fly outta my hand on the first shot cause I had to shoot from a compromised position/grip. Lots of things to consider when choosing a SD round besides highest velocity. Accuracy should always be a top priority.
 
My honest suggestion would be to check into the Hornady Critical Defense rounds.I think they are 165 gr.

I found enough in the sticky post on SD handloads to be convinced .Mas Ayoob ,etc give some serious advice about it.But,you make your own choices.

If I was handloading SD loads for a Charter,They might be cast SWC,185 gr,out of a softer alloy.

Short of an engineered,tested load like a Critical Defense,I'm skeptical that most jacketed reloading bullets will perform reliably at Charter velocities.I'd bet on a lead slug with a SWC meplat and shoulder.

IMO,40 fps is not real significant ,I also believe there won't usually be enough accuracy difference to matter.Matching bullet dia to cyl throat dia,etc might matter more.

I'd also go easy on the Charter.Its not a S+W 696.

Dependability and controllability are significant.
 
I am an advocate of power, but it is not the single most important thing.

Reliability of the weapon is 1st, with accuracy being a very close second.

Power is a big plus, but without the ability to hit accurately , or having power available in a gun that doesn't work well means power is of no value.

I have a training tool I use with my students. It's simple but takes about half a day to set it up.
I set 2 poles in the ground about 14 feet high. There is a loop of cable going from pulley's on the tops of those poles. I have a "gallows style" platform on each pole that sets about 9 feet up.
I can hang targets from the cable loop or set them on lines coming down from it that set on the platforms. I like to use those ballistic targets that move when hit and can take many thousands of rounds.

By suspending the targets on the lines and moving or swinging them you get moving targets. The drill is to hit them with your weapon when they are moving. 1-3 shots each time, from low ready, high ready, from a hoilster, from kneeling, sitting, standing and turning towards the targets when facing away or 90 degrees away.

This kind of training tool will show you want you need to work on better than any standing target I have ever seen or used. If you cannot do well with a powerful weapon on still targets you will really see a dip in your performance with moving targets, and these swinging targets not only move side to side, but up and down too.

I am a great fan of using the most powerful weapon you can shoot well, but never shooting something you can't shoot well.

My "bragging student" (I brag about her, she doesn't brag at all) is a young lady who is 4' 9" tall, and weighs 91 pounds. She could not handle anything that kicks very well at all. So I got her a Ruger SINGLE ACTION in 357 mag and loaded her ammo to hot 38 special levels. 160 grain bullets at about 1050 FPS. After about 6 months of training this young gal can hit her target 6 out of 6 most times, moving or still, at ranges up to 25 years and do it fast. The SA grip frame doesn't hurt her hand at all. (Now and then she'll miss one shot out of 6 but that miss is quite close)
Now I think a SA revolver is one of the weapons I would recommend last as a combat weapon, but in her case she shoots it VERY well and VERY fast, and she does a lot worse with DA revolvers and about 1/2 as well with autos.

In time I think she can learn to shoot a 1911 45 or a good 9MM as well, but for the time being I have told her to stay with her 357. Why?
Because she is a deadly shot with it. Nothing counts but hits!

A hot 38 is not on the same level as a hot 357, which is not going to do as well as a 12 gauge with a slug. But she misses or makes poor hits with more powerful guns and she doesn't miss much at all with her Ruger. She also have a 10/22 rifle that is very easy for her to hit with.

This young gal is married to an oil field worker who is often out of the state. She lives with her young baby and she is protective of that baby.

Any 91 pound mother that can hit a flying 8" ball with a 38 or a 22 about 90% of the time is NO ONE you want to try to attack, or try to take her baby from. She is a very deadly shooter and she has nothing very powerful, but if she ever needs to shoot I am pretty sure the attacker is going to be rather unconcerned that he's getting killed with a "weak bullet".
 
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