S&W Model 36 "Chief's Special

I carried a Chiefs Special 3" barrel, square butt for many years and never felt unarmed. They made a few with a heavy 3" barrel and I have fired those, but never owned one. I think they were better than the standard barrel. The 3" barrel solves the problem of the ejector rod length.

In retrospect, I think that today I would probably go with a concealed hammer gun, but I never had a problem with the hammer snagging when I carried "high right rear" in a Bucheimer Federal Man holster (no longer on the market).

As to range, I can still hit a man-size silhouette every shot with that Chiefs at 100 yards, shooting double action.

Jim
 
I have a S&W model 642 -- .38 +P alloy frame, hammerless. I have to admit that I'm not very good with it. I have to agree that the sights aren't very good. On the other hand, they sure are snag-free, making it great for pocket carry.

I don't practice with it as much as a should, because I find that the recoil frankly hurts. I'm going to start playing with the grips, to see if I can find one that is more comfortable, but not any bigger than the factory grips.

Hit a target at 100 yards with it? Heck, I'm lucky to hit the target at 50 feet with my 642. YMMV.

My 642 is off at a gunsmith right now. He's putting in an orange ramp front sight, chamfering the charge holes, and doing an action job. I'll see how I like it when it comes back.

M1911
 
I can't believe it the SW CS not the perfect small .38.... :rolleyes:

The best small .38 special is the Colt Detective Special in the short butt version like for example a Colt alloy framed agent. It not only has much better sights..which means thick and easier to see under bad stress it has 6..count 'em 6 shots :D And I think a much nicer trigger pull. Now i'll admit I have only fired one SW CS and it was an early stainles 36 but it had a horrible stiff trigger and I couldn't hit anything with it DA which is how these guns are used. The Colt on the other hand has a lighter (from the box) trigger...admitly its a longer pull and stacks at the end but it is lighter and i think easier to shoot. Colts also have a longer ejection rod that pops out those empties nicely.

Yes, lets see..

Pluses are.. Better sights..smooth light DA from box( no custom work).. 6 shots ...alloy frame makes it light.. better ejection... and you could buy a hammer shroud to make it easier to draw from a pocket.. plus still use SA if you feel the need... And they look sooo cool.

Minuses... it's a little bigger (6 shots!) Not made anymore.. has a rep for losing the timing more easily than the SW.

Colt.....

shiro

[This message has been edited by shiroikuma, Anchorage AK (edited October 11, 2000).]
 
I carry a old 36 (no dash number) with a hammer I bobbed myself.Sam and I where out shooting today and we where bounceing a bowling pin around at 15 yrds with it.Speed shooting I hit 4 out of 5 rds every time and Sam was hitting 5 out of 5 allmost all the time.You don't need sights on the 36 just look across the top and catch the front.You have to know where to hold on the target but makes this little gun a deadly piece for carry or backup.

------------------
Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
Shiro,

In my opinion, the biggest drawback to the Colt is the operation of the cylinder latch. Most people can't operate the latch with one hand without radically altering their grip.

With any of my S&Ws I can operate the latch and open the cylinder with one hand while the other is going for a speedloader.

At one point in time I had practiced doing rapid reloads that I was consistently below 3 seconds for last shot, reload, first shot with my Model 19.

I had a DS for a number of years, and finally traded it in on a 36 square butt with 3" heavy barrel because of the latch.

Mine had the shrouded hammer from the factory.

I will admit that there is a lot to recommend the DS, but not for me.

My DS, and quite a few others that I shot, also had very mediocre to poor triggers.

Colts also tend to stack a lot more than S&W triggers due to the design.

Putting a Colt trigger to its best is a lot more time consuming and difficult than it is with a Smith.

I recently got an 042 Smith Airweight Centennial. Don't know how I lived without it for so long.

I've got a spring set on order for it, and I'll be doing an action job after I get the springs installed.

I would, however, sell my firstborn (ok, so I don't have kids! :)) to get a DS in .32 Long, though.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
You know that's interesting about the cylinder latch. I read Ayoob's Stressfire and one other of his and used his reload method which was to pop the latch with the thumb, swing the cylinder out with the other hand. Your fingers go through the frame and go around the cylinder and your thumb naturally falls on the ejection rod. Your thumb drives out the empties while your other (gun )hand brings up the reloader and pokes in the rounds. Next your non shooting hand thumb clicks the cylinder shut as you drop the loader and grip the pistol again. then you shoot.

I thing that works well, but maybe you wouldn't like it ..to each his own.

shiro
 
I have three of the J frame Smiths and like all of them. My favorite is a 36 3" HB with square grips. I carry a 37 2" a lot. My wife carries the 36 2". The only thing I am not sure of is the best ammo for them. I currently use the 125 gr. Nyclad +P load. For years I carried a 148gr. HBWC seated backwards. It expanded well in wet phone books and water. I have not seen any modern tests of the load though.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe D:
I have three of the J frame Smiths and like all of them. My favorite is a 36 3" HB with square grips. I carry a 37 2" a lot. My wife carries the 36 2". The only thing I am not sure of is the best ammo for them. I currently use the 125 gr. Nyclad +P load. For years I carried a 148gr. HBWC seated backwards. It expanded well in wet phone books and water. I have not seen any modern tests of the load though. [/quote]

Joe, where do you get your 125-gr. Nyclad +P? Online? Where?

I have been having a HORRIBLE time trying to find this ammo, and it's what I've carried for years in my small frame .38s.



------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
As of 1999, S&W had produced some number greater than 8.5 Million .38 caliber M&P's.

Not to mention the assorted .22LR, .22 Mag, .32 Long, .32 H&R mag, .357 Mag and others.

That's alot more than the total production of the M, I, J, L, and N frames combined, if I'm not mistaken.

Of course, the little Det.Spec. is still one sweet rockin' iron.

;)

-Kframe
 
Oh, another thing.

Some people have issues with the "small" sights.

Well, if you are searching for your sights when someone is trying to kill you, you are already dead.

With most handguns, especially small pocket/backup/hideout/purse/day-planner close-quarter combat guns, you most be able to thrust your arm forward toward the torso of the BG, and fire where you are looking.

If you aren't watching the BG, you will lose him and he will get you.

Why do the "experts" at those fancy training facilities teach reloading while keeping an eye on the "suspect"?

That makes sense... but then when you are going to shoot, they want you to look down, and focus near to the gun in your hands, all the while the assailant is trying to take you out.

That doesn't make sense.

With practice, and that's the key, you can learn to confront a target about 7-10 yards away, punch your arms out in a two-hand hold and glare into the target torso.
You fire and hit what you are looking at.
All five, or six, or for the M686Plus fans, seven shots into a six inch circle.


Besides, since it's dark in most alleys how will you see your sights anyway?

Tritium?

Please...

So you can now see your sights but not the bad guy?
Even if you could dimly see a bad guy, you are too busy looking at the pretty dots on your gun.

A plain jane M36, M64, M10, M12, M13, M042, M649, M642, M337.... aw heck, any 2-3" J or K-framed S&W is quite likely to serve you well in most concealed carry applications.

It ain't IPSC or handgun-hunting, it's carrying all day long and hoping to get home that night.

Or at least that's my $.02, -Kframe

[This message has been edited by Kframe (edited October 11, 2000).]
 
I think there is a Massad Ayoob article in a recent magazine (perhaps the recent Handgunner) where he decides to go through some course with nothing but a pair of J-frames. Something about putting his money where his mouth was, or something to that effect.

I haven't yet read any of the earlier Ayoob books, but I have seen him refer kindly to J-frames on several occasions. He also likes to praise the "FBI load" a lot, 158gr LSWCHP .38 Special +P.

the HumpMan
 
Shiro,

Mas I'maboob wasn't the first person to use that reloading/handling technique. The Air Force had us qualify on the M-38 (Model 10) in 1989 as aircrew just prior to Desert Shield and Desert Storm. They taught the same right thumb cylinder latch, left hand wrap, fingers through the open frame, left thumb on ejector rod drill. Then we qualified on the M1911's, and finally, the M-9's (Beretta 92's). Wonder where all those Model 10's went, probably off to Cap'n Krunch... To this day, whenever I work with either my Model 36, my Model 19, or Model 1905 Hand Ejector/Race Pistol, the technique is ingrained, either fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gewehr98:
Mas I'maboob wasn't the first person to use that reloading/handling technique. The Air Force had us qualify on the M-38 (Model 10) in 1989 as aircrew just prior to Desert Shield and Desert Storm. They taught the same right thumb cylinder latch, left hand wrap, fingers through the open frame, left thumb on ejector rod drill.[/quote]

That's the FBI method, which I suspect has been taught for longer than I've been alive. But it isn't the method taught by Ayoob, nor has he ever claimed that he invented it.

Ayoob describes his method in his book "Stressfire", Chapter 17. Briefly, 1) push the cylinder release with the right thumb, 2)push the cylinder through with the left fingers (up to here, the two methods have been the same), 3) with the gun still in the right hand and pointed straight upwards, slap the palm of the left hand on the ejector (FBI method uses left thumb on the ejector instead, not the left palm), 4) the left hand grabs the gun with the thumb through the action, the fore finger above the ejector rod, and the middle finger below the ejector rod (the picture in the book explains it better, this is different than the FBI method, which has 2 fingers through the action), 5) grasping the speedloader with the strong hand, with the fingers ahead of the bullets, guide the speedloader into the cylinders, 6) turn the knob of the speedloader, 7) strong hand grabs the butt and the weak hand closes the cylinder (the speedloader is allowed to fall away at this point).

You can argue whether or not Ayoob's method is better or worse than the FBI method. I don't shoot revolvers enough to make that judgement. But the FBI method is not the same as Ayoob's method and Ayoob never claimed he invented the FBI method. If you want to criticize Ayoob, fine. But get your facts straight first.

M1911
 
M1911,

Sorry if I sounded that way, but nowhere in my post did I relate that Ayoob "invented" that technique. I was posting strictly based on the info found in Shiroikuma's post above, concerning what he'd read in Stressfire and the information he provided. I wouldn't read any of Ayoob's stuff, he vacillates too much, which of course is strictly a personal preference thing of mine. I just recognized the technique Shiroikuma posted, and how it related to our military training. My apologies if that torqued you, that was not my intent. I don't shoot revolvers much, either, being a 1911 owner myself, but when I do:
http://www.geocities.com/gew98.geo/ppcpropointleftplonk2.jpg

[This message has been edited by Gewehr98 (edited October 11, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gewehr98 (edited October 11, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gewehr98:


[deleted]

I wouldn't read any of Ayoob's stuff, he vacillates too much, which of course is strictly a personal preference thing of mine.

[deleted]

My apologies if that torqued you, that was not my intent.]
[/quote]

Well, a couple things torqued me off. First, calling him "Mas I'maboob" is uncalled for. If you disagree with him, fine tell us where he's wrong. I'm not saying that I agree with everything he's written. But skip the name calling.

Also, you criticize him, but then say "I wouldn't read any of Ayoob's stuff..." You'll be better able to criticize his teachings if you read what he has to say. I seem to run across a lot of folks who like to criticize him, but have never read his books or gone to his classes.

Regarding him "vacillating," I don't know what, in particular, you're referring to. He's written a lot of stuff over a long period of time. I'm sure that he's changed his mind over some things during that time. And also he's probably not always been 100% consistent -- I know I couldn't be if I had to write on monthly deadlines. Of course, the only gun magazines that I read these are Shotgun News and American Rifleman -- most of the others seem to like every gun that a manufacturer let's them test...

But why don't you read one of his books? The worst that can happen is that it will confirm your opinion of him and you'll be out $20 or so. On the other hand, may be you'll learn something and agree with some of the things he has to say.

I've read a two or three books by Gabe Suarez. There's a number of things in his books that I don't agree with. But I also think there's a lot to learn from Suarez.

M1911
 
And you're singling me out for criticizing Ayoob on his wavering standpoints, when even the moderator above mentioned in this thread that Ayoob's credibility suffers. Fair, I guess...

That topic's been brought up here on these forums for a long time, just do a search. Same as the "cutesy" name for Mas, I think the term was even coined here. I've read much of Ayoob's material, his LFI pamphlets, commentaries, articles in the gun rags, Shotgun News Glock synopses, etc. I've discussed his opinions and techniques with Mr. John Quintrall, who was his Sacramento "agent" for the LFI-II course and also one of Ayoob's favorite gunsmiths. Hence my decision not to purchase Stressfire or attend LFI, and instead go the Thunder Ranch route. That doesn't make Mas a bad person in my eyes, it just means I agree to disagree with his techniques and viewpoints, sorta like an online forum...

That doesn't mean I won't borrow and read the book sometime, after I wade through all the other must-reads by Jeff Cooper, Elmer Keith, Martin Fackler, Townsend Whelen, John Plaster, and the like.

Regardless of what Mas Ayoob says about the little Model 36, I still find it to be one hell of a gun, and there are days I prefer packing it versus my Caspian Officer's ACP.
 
Gew98,

Sorry, but pejorative name for Mas, as well as several others, have been floating around for years.

I was familiar with them when I worked for American Rifleman back in the early 90s.

------------------
Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gewehr98:
And you're singling me out for criticizing Ayoob on his wavering standpoints, when even the moderator above mentioned in this thread that Ayoob's credibility suffers. Fair, I guess...

That topic's been brought up here on these forums for a long time, just do a search. Same as the "cutesy" name for Mas, I think the term was even coined here. I've read much of Ayoob's material, his LFI pamphlets, commentaries, articles in the gun rags, Shotgun News Glock synopses, etc. I've discussed his opinions and techniques with Mr. John Quintrall, who was his Sacramento "agent" for the LFI-II course and also one of Ayoob's favorite gunsmiths. Hence my decision not to purchase Stressfire or attend LFI, and instead go the Thunder Ranch route. That doesn't make Mas a bad person in my eyes, it just means I agree to disagree with his techniques and viewpoints, sorta like an online forum...

That doesn't mean I won't borrow and read the book sometime, after I wade through all the other must-reads by Jeff Cooper, Elmer Keith, Martin Fackler, Townsend Whelen, John Plaster, and the like.

Regardless of what Mas Ayoob says about the little Model 36, I still find it to be one hell of a gun, and there are days I prefer packing it versus my Caspian Officer's ACP. [/quote]

Well, what wavering viewpoints?

Calling someone a boob, even if you were not the first to do so, is not "cutsey." The fact that someone else used such an insult before you did does not change the fact that it is insulting, and uncalled for. If you don't agree with what he says, fine. Tell us why and where. You may find that I agree with you. But stop the name calling.

On a different subject, I'd be interested in what you thought of Thunder Ranch. I've been to LFI-1 & 2 and am considering attending Thunder Ranch or Blackwater Lodge...
Perhaps you'd start a new thread to tell us what it was like.

M1911
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top