S&W 625-5 in .45 Colt... .454 Casull Fit in Cylinder???
- Thread starter Southern Shooter
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
Yes, I've already said that I've rethought the purpose for the step.
"And when the Peacemaker was introduced in 1873, with the step, there was certainly no longer .45-caliber round available for it to prevent chambering."
And yet the step did NOT appear in Colt's commercial guns until the 1930s...
To me that indicates that, once again, that was a Government requirement, not a Colt innovation, and Colt only adopted it in that production gun because the Government contract said "Thou SHALL..."
"You're putting the cart before the horse again."
Cogito, ergo palomino.
Putting Descarte before the horse.
If anything, this discussion clearly shows that the cart goes before the horse, after the horse, on top of the horse and below the horse all at the same time because the various companies were doing different things at different times (and sometimes at the same time).
"And when the Peacemaker was introduced in 1873, with the step, there was certainly no longer .45-caliber round available for it to prevent chambering."
And yet the step did NOT appear in Colt's commercial guns until the 1930s...
To me that indicates that, once again, that was a Government requirement, not a Colt innovation, and Colt only adopted it in that production gun because the Government contract said "Thou SHALL..."
"You're putting the cart before the horse again."
Cogito, ergo palomino.
Putting Descarte before the horse.
If anything, this discussion clearly shows that the cart goes before the horse, after the horse, on top of the horse and below the horse all at the same time because the various companies were doing different things at different times (and sometimes at the same time).
Southern Shooter
New member
Both sides be correct?
Could both sides be correct?
Could both sides be correct?
And the horse can be an entirely different color than what you originally thought it was, too. 
Since you've re-thought your position, it's probably unnecessary to point out that the step in the first S&W .357 Mag revolvers long predated the .357 Maximum cartridges, and the step in 1935 wasn't included in .357s from the git-go to prevent chambering a longer round that wouldn't exist for several decades into the future, so I won't...
Denis
Since you've re-thought your position, it's probably unnecessary to point out that the step in the first S&W .357 Mag revolvers long predated the .357 Maximum cartridges, and the step in 1935 wasn't included in .357s from the git-go to prevent chambering a longer round that wouldn't exist for several decades into the future, so I won't...
Denis
Mike Irwin
Staff
And yet you haven't explained the existence of the .22 Extra Long cartridge and how that trashes your theory... 
S&W executives were obviously smart enough to know that once one longer cartridge came about there obviously could be others, to adding definitive limits earlier, not later, was the prudent way to go.
Those reckless bastards at Colt? Live fast, die young, leave an attractive corpse, I guess...
S&W executives were obviously smart enough to know that once one longer cartridge came about there obviously could be others, to adding definitive limits earlier, not later, was the prudent way to go.
Those reckless bastards at Colt? Live fast, die young, leave an attractive corpse, I guess...
Southern Shooter,
To remedy your concerns....you should sell me the revolver for say $500 and I will promise that I will use due care to never put a .454 Casual in it. That will be an easy task for me, since I own a Peacemaker clone in .45 colt but have no .454 ammo or guns on the premisses..
To remedy your concerns....you should sell me the revolver for say $500 and I will promise that I will use due care to never put a .454 Casual in it. That will be an easy task for me, since I own a Peacemaker clone in .45 colt but have no .454 ammo or guns on the premisses.
.Well, I disbelieve anybody at any brand included that step as a hedge against more powerful cartridges decades into the future, the reasons I gave make more sense.
And you'll notice Colt, tighter chamber tolerances or not, included the step in all revolver production after a certain point regardless of government contracts or the lack thereof.
But, if you find something to the contrary in your books, let me know.
Denis
And you'll notice Colt, tighter chamber tolerances or not, included the step in all revolver production after a certain point regardless of government contracts or the lack thereof.
But, if you find something to the contrary in your books, let me know.
Denis
Southern Shooter
New member
twobit
LOL...Well, you know, I had actually intended to sell the gun...was even offered considerably more than $500 for the gun by several folks. I have a Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull and of course can shoot the mildest to the wildest .45 Colt in it. But, when it came time to do it I just could not part with it. The trigger is really nice, it handles, and, heck fire...it is pretty.
LOL...Well, you know, I had actually intended to sell the gun...was even offered considerably more than $500 for the gun by several folks. I have a Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull and of course can shoot the mildest to the wildest .45 Colt in it. But, when it came time to do it I just could not part with it. The trigger is really nice, it handles, and, heck fire...it is pretty.
Last edited:
Southern Shooter
New member
Bored Straight Through
Denis,
My knee-jerk response is to say yes...I am absolutely sure the chamber is bored straight through. HOWEVER, I am going to look again the moment I walk in the door from work, today. Perhaps, I am totally mistaken about that.
For what it is worth, I have enjoyed and learned much from your's and Mike's exchanges.
Thanks
Denis,
My knee-jerk response is to say yes...I am absolutely sure the chamber is bored straight through. HOWEVER, I am going to look again the moment I walk in the door from work, today. Perhaps, I am totally mistaken about that.
For what it is worth, I have enjoyed and learned much from your's and Mike's exchanges.
Thanks
If they ARE bored straight through, then you have a factory defect & I'd be calling S&W on it.
If they still have any cylinders for that gun laying around, they should send you a pickup & replace the cylinder for nothing.
But- inspect the chambers carefully, from both ends.
Use good lighting & somebody with good eyeballs.
If necessary, run a narrow object like a dental pick, nutpick, or even a nail down the internal walls from the rear & see if it runs into a shelf before it exits the front end.
And, Mike's a good man, when he's not cartin...er, horsing around.
Denis
As I think about it, another easy way to tell is to try to insert a LOADED cartridge into the front end of the chamber, with the cylinder open.
If it'll allow anything but the bullet inside, you have a straight-wall chamber.
If they still have any cylinders for that gun laying around, they should send you a pickup & replace the cylinder for nothing.
But- inspect the chambers carefully, from both ends.
Use good lighting & somebody with good eyeballs.
If necessary, run a narrow object like a dental pick, nutpick, or even a nail down the internal walls from the rear & see if it runs into a shelf before it exits the front end.
And, Mike's a good man, when he's not cartin...er, horsing around.
Denis
As I think about it, another easy way to tell is to try to insert a LOADED cartridge into the front end of the chamber, with the cylinder open.
If it'll allow anything but the bullet inside, you have a straight-wall chamber.
Last edited:
Jim,
Sorry, I overlooked you.
You were the only one who picked up on that.
You've pointed out a good part of the reason for the step.
The .22 LR still uses the older heel-based bullet style, with the bullet essentially outside the case, or basically the same diameter.
Doesn't have a need for the step to center the bullet.
Check your Ruger Magnum cylinder. Or, a Smith .22 Mag, if you have one.
See a step in those chambers?
Ruger doesn't include that step in their .22 Mag chambers to prevent a longer round from chambering.
Either today, or 40 years from now.
Denis
Sorry, I overlooked you.
You were the only one who picked up on that.
You've pointed out a good part of the reason for the step.
The .22 LR still uses the older heel-based bullet style, with the bullet essentially outside the case, or basically the same diameter.
Doesn't have a need for the step to center the bullet.
Check your Ruger Magnum cylinder. Or, a Smith .22 Mag, if you have one.
See a step in those chambers?
Ruger doesn't include that step in their .22 Mag chambers to prevent a longer round from chambering.
Either today, or 40 years from now.
Denis
Mike, maybe they changed, but my Model 1899, #11xxx, does have chamber "shoulders" and will not accept a .357 case or round even though the cylinder is long enough. The 1899 was never chambered for .38 Long Colt specifically, it was always chambered for .38 Special but would, of course, accept the .38 LC. Up to c. 1909, they were marked for .38 Special and U.S. Service Cartridge (.38 LC) but that marking was dropped when the .38 was no longer the standard service cartridge.
Interestingly enough, Colt originally put shoulders in the chambers of its Arrny and Navy .38 LC revolvers, but c. 1905 they bored them straight through to accept .38 Special, and those revolvers will accept and fire the .357 Magnum, something I don't recommend. Of course, Colt never marked those guns for .38 Smith and Wesson Special; I can't imagine why.
Jim
Interestingly enough, Colt originally put shoulders in the chambers of its Arrny and Navy .38 LC revolvers, but c. 1905 they bored them straight through to accept .38 Special, and those revolvers will accept and fire the .357 Magnum, something I don't recommend. Of course, Colt never marked those guns for .38 Smith and Wesson Special; I can't imagine why.
Jim
No one ever claimed that shoulders were put in chambers to prevent some as yet unknown cartridge from being used. It is the other way around. When the .357 Magnum (for example) was developed, it was deliberately made longer than the .38 Special to prevent its being used in .38 Special chambers. (Either S&W didn't know about the old Colts or they tested and found there was little danger.)
The same was true of the .454 Casull, whose case is .10" longer than the .45 Colt case so it won't fit into a .45 Colt chamber. The throat of a revolver is made as it is for best accuracy with the cartridge it is intended for, not to prevent some longer round from being chambered. But cartridge designers take advantage of that to prevent newer and higher pressure rounds from being chambered in guns made for lower pressure ammunition.
Early cartridge revolvers were chambered for heel type bullets, which had the same diameter as the cartridge case, so those guns have chambers bored through, as do chambers for the .22 LR, which uses a heel-type bullet.
Jim
The same was true of the .454 Casull, whose case is .10" longer than the .45 Colt case so it won't fit into a .45 Colt chamber. The throat of a revolver is made as it is for best accuracy with the cartridge it is intended for, not to prevent some longer round from being chambered. But cartridge designers take advantage of that to prevent newer and higher pressure rounds from being chambered in guns made for lower pressure ammunition.
Early cartridge revolvers were chambered for heel type bullets, which had the same diameter as the cartridge case, so those guns have chambers bored through, as do chambers for the .22 LR, which uses a heel-type bullet.
Jim
Pretty much what I've been saying, except that the .454s WILL fit in .45 Colt S&W chambers.
Interestingly enough, just now in trying the same three loads in a Ruger convertible .45, the 300-grainer was the only one that would NOT seat fully. The other two did.
Bullet profile seems to be a factor.
Denis
Interestingly enough, just now in trying the same three loads in a Ruger convertible .45, the 300-grainer was the only one that would NOT seat fully. The other two did.
Bullet profile seems to be a factor.
Denis
Southern Shooter
New member
Bored Straight Through
Denis,
There is NO "step" in any of the chambers. However, it is NOT bored straight through, either. There is a tapering in each chamber that allows a .452 bullet to pass freely to just before the throat. There, it stops.
Could the "step" have been machined out? Where the "step" would have been seems less smooth/polished than the rest of the chamber. Or, is that normal?
Thanks
Denis,
There is NO "step" in any of the chambers. However, it is NOT bored straight through, either. There is a tapering in each chamber that allows a .452 bullet to pass freely to just before the throat. There, it stops.
Could the "step" have been machined out? Where the "step" would have been seems less smooth/polished than the rest of the chamber. Or, is that normal?
Thanks
With the way S&W's gone over the past few years, almost anything's possible.
My 625 has distinct steps. So do the blued versions.
The company could have done something different with yours, either deliberately or accidentally.
On the .45 ACP N-Frames in recent years that step has been altered enough to not allow the reliable headspacing that it used to in that caliber.
I've argued it with Smith & Wesson who tells me that processes put in place a while back can't be allowing deeper "shelves", or less distinct shoulders on those shelves, but I've had at least three Ns chambered for the .45 ACP in the past 12 years or so that would allow some rounds to slip deeper into the chambers & fail to go bang, whereas my older N-Frames in the same caliber properly headspace and support the same ACP factory loads reliably.
Something similar could be going on with your gun.
If you do have some constriction at the forward end, it's consistent on all six chambers, and your accuracy is OK, I wouldn't worry about the chambers.
Keep on shooting it, with the CORRECT .45 Colt ammunition, don't load it with .454s, and you should be fine.
Denis
My 625 has distinct steps. So do the blued versions.
The company could have done something different with yours, either deliberately or accidentally.
On the .45 ACP N-Frames in recent years that step has been altered enough to not allow the reliable headspacing that it used to in that caliber.
I've argued it with Smith & Wesson who tells me that processes put in place a while back can't be allowing deeper "shelves", or less distinct shoulders on those shelves, but I've had at least three Ns chambered for the .45 ACP in the past 12 years or so that would allow some rounds to slip deeper into the chambers & fail to go bang, whereas my older N-Frames in the same caliber properly headspace and support the same ACP factory loads reliably.
Something similar could be going on with your gun.
If you do have some constriction at the forward end, it's consistent on all six chambers, and your accuracy is OK, I wouldn't worry about the chambers.
Keep on shooting it, with the CORRECT .45 Colt ammunition, don't load it with .454s, and you should be fine.
Denis
Mike Irwin
Staff
Jim, the first several hundred 1899 s apparently were chambered specifically for the .38 long for military contacts ands were straight bored. At least that is what I have been told by collectors who have them.
Last edited:
Duke City Six
New member
This has been a very interesting discussion. I love this forum.
Last edited: