S&W 625-5 in .45 Colt... .454 Casull Fit in Cylinder???

S

Southern Shooter

New member
Is something wrong here?

I thought all revolvers which shared sister calibers but are "weaker" rounds like .38 Special, .44 Special, .45 Colt had cylinder chambers cut so the more powerful rounds like .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .454 Casull could not be loaded into them.

I have a 1989 production S&W 625-3 in .45 Colt that allows .454 Casull to fit in its chambers. NOTE: I have NO intentions of firing .454 Casull rounds in this gun !! I just happen to notice that the portion of the chamber allowing a brass to be inserted only so far is NOT there. The chambers just gradually taper as they reach the portion nearest the forcing cone.

Is this the way the gun was designed?

Thanks
 
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New Case

I just tried to fit an unused .454 Casull brass in the chambers. It does not fit all the way in and does not allow the cylinder to close. Just figured that even a loaded Casull round would NOT fit in the chambers, either.
 
You're both confused & confusing.

The internal "step" in the chamber isn't there on a rimmed-caliber gun to headspace the brass, that step only does that function on a rimless case like the .45 ACP & the 9mm.

Loading an empty .454 Casull brass into a .45 Colt chamber won't tell you anything at all. Yes, it'll seat completely, or should, anyway.
Certainly does in my 25-5 & my 25-9.

What does prevent a .454 Casull LOADED round from being fired in the .45 Colt Smiths is the overall cartridge (CARTRIDGE, not empty brass) length.

In my .45 Colt Smiths, the bullet nose sticks far enough out the front of the chambers to hit the barrel's forcing cone & prevent the cylinder from closing.

Are you trying to say .454 Casull EMPTY BRASS won't seat far enough to close the cylinder?
It's late & I'm tired, but you seem to be contradicting yourself.
Denis
 
DPris

You're both confused & confusing....It's late & I'm tired, but you seem to be contradicting yourself. Denis.
Click to expand...
Are you really that tired or just lack professional tact?

The internal "step" in the chamber isn't there on a rimmed-caliber gun to headspace the brass, that step only does that function on a rimless case like the .45 ACP & the 9mm.
Click to expand...
It may not be there to headspace the brass but, that internal "step" prevents more powerful rounds from being loaded into and fired from weaker guns. An example would be .357 Magnum in a .38 Special revolver.

What does prevent a .454 Casull LOADED round from being fired in the .45 Colt Smiths is the overall cartridge (CARTRIDGE, not empty brass) length.

In my .45 Colt Smiths, the bullet nose sticks far enough out the front of the chambers to hit the barrel's forcing cone & prevent the cylinder from closing.
Click to expand...
While that could be in some situations, I am sitting here looking at Buffalo Bore .454 Casull rounds with 360 grain L.B.T. cast bullets loaded into this particular 625-5 .45 Colt. And, yes, the brass fit all the way in with no force and the cylinder closed and locked. And, the cylinder rotates freely and smoothly. No bullet is protruding out the front of the cylinder. ????
S&W 625-5 cylinder BB .454 Casull 360 gr cast.JPG

Are you trying to say .454 Casull EMPTY BRASS won't seat far enough to close the cylinder?
Click to expand...
What I am saying is that this .45 Colt revolver 1) does NOT have an "internal step" in the chambers, 2) allows .454 Casull ammunition to be loaded into its cylinder.

Thank you
 
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I have a 1989 production S&W 625-5 in .45 Colt that allows .454 Casull to fit in its chambers.
Click to expand...

I just tried to fit an unused .454 Casull brass in the chambers. It does not fit all the way in and does not allow the cylinder to close. Just figured that even a loaded Casull round would NOT fit in the chambers, either.
Click to expand...

I am sitting here looking at Buffalo Bore .454 Casull rounds with 360 grain L.B.T. cast bullets loaded into this particular 625-5 .45 Colt. And, yes, the brass fit all the way in with no force and the cylinder closed and locked.
Click to expand...

Is this a game? Do I win something if I point at the contradictions?
 
Since the only external difference between the 45 and the 454 is the case length an empty case in the chamber won't tell you anything. You must try a loaded round. It should not chamber but with modern guns not being as well cared for by craftsmen during manufacturing I wouldn't be shocked if fits. Goes without saying (so I'll say it) don't shoot a 454 in a 45.
 
I for sure won't shoot a .454 Casull through that gun. Out of my 20 revolvers, which include S&W, Ruger, Dan Wesson, Taurus, Rossi and span 35+ years of productions, this is the only revolver that does NOT have that internal step in the chamber leading to the throat. I just wanted to make sure there was not a problem, defective manufacturing, or after-market modification with this gun.
 
First, a tapered area (called a leade) is needed in a revolver chamber because the front part (the throat) is bullet diameter while the rear part is case diameter. In the case of revolvers chambered for rimless cartridges, like 9mm or .45 ACP, there is a sharp shoulder for case support ("headspace" if you must). I have never seen a modern S&W centerfire revolver which did not have either a leade or a shoulder in the chambers.

So no, a .454 Casull, with a case 1/10 inch longer than .45 Colt, should not fit into a .45 Colt chamber. Since the CASE is longer, neither a loaded round nor an empty case should fit.

I don't think a 625 can even be chambered for .454 Casull because the cylinder is not long enough, but I haven't checked. As to whether a 625 would be strong enough for .454 Casull, I suggest contacting S&W.

Jim
 
OK, just pulled the 1989-ish 625 Mountain Gun out of the vault.

Three different Buffalo Bore .454 loads will FULLY chamber, with rims fully seated against the star, as with the .45 Colt loads.

This gun does have the internal "steps".

The 250-grain Barnes jacketed sticks far enough out the front of the chamber to jam against the forcing cone & prevent the cylinder from closing.

The 300-grain jacketed flat nose clears enough to close the cylinder & COULD fire.

The 360-grain lead gas check sticks out the front too far to close the cylinder.

As with the 25-5 & the 25-9 I tried last night, the guns WILL allow any of the BBs to seat fully with the cylinder open, but not all will allow the cylinder to close.

You'd be a fool to shoot a .454 through one of these guns, but it could be done, depending on the overall cartridge length.

I have other .454 brands, but you were referring specifically to Buffalo Bore, so I only tried those three just now.

And, I was both tired & confused at your contradictory posts that also showed a lack of knowledge about the chamber, its "step", and what that step's there for, which is to align the bullet more precisely with the forcing cone, not to provide headspacing on a rimmed case.

Your .38/.357 analogy doesn't support your premise. The step is where it is in a .38-caliber cylinder primarily because that's where it needs to be to perform its main function- aligning the bullet.
Blocking full seating of a longer .357 cartridge is a secondary byproduct.

Denis
 
Exactly what Jim said.

A Smith & Wesson .38 Special should not, and does not, allow an empty .357 Magnum of proper dimensions to fit in the chambers. The leade and/or shoulder prevent that.

The same is, or should be, true of a .454 Casull in a .45 Colt.
 
"Your .38/.357 analogy doesn't support your premise. The step is where it is in a .38-caliber cylinder primarily because that's where it needs to be to perform its main function- aligning the bullet.
Blocking full seating of a longer .357 cartridge is a secondary byproduct."

Say what now?

Original S&W Model of 1899 revolvers in .38 Long Colt did not have either a leade or a chamber shoulder, they were straight bored, and they aligned the bullet just fine.
 
Mike,
It's long been my understanding that the step is there for the reason I mentioned.

The cartridge fits loosely enough in the chamber to allow it to present the bullet at more of an angle to the forcing cone without the constriction (step) than it does with that step.

Also a longtime understanding that the step, in aligning the bullet more precisely, reduces stresses on the internal forcing cone walls with at least a fractionally shallower entry/impact angle, reduces bullet deformation, and affects accuracy at least slightly.

in 1889, accuracy wasn't as much of an issue, and revolvers were not as advanced as they are today.

The original Colt 1917 had a straight bored-through chamber, you notice it was later modified to include the step.
In that case, largely to allow loading .45 ACP rounds singly without the need for clips, by headspacing on the rimless case mouth. But, still...

It's never been my understanding that the step or shoulder exists to prevent a longer round from being chambered.
Denis
 
"The cartridge fits loosely enough in the chamber to allow it to present the bullet at more of an angle to the forcing cone without the constriction (step) than it does with that step."

Something that could, and can, be easily addressed by doing it the way Colt did it for decades, by adopting closer dimensions in the chambers.

"The original Colt 1917 had a straight bored-through chamber, you notice it was later modified to include the step."

Yes, it was modified to include the step because the Government demanded that the step be put there if the gun had to be fired with unclipped .45 ACP ammunition.

In the case of the Model of 1917 the shoulder is there to provide definitive headspace control if the gun has to be fired without the half moon clips. The military anticipated that that could certainly be the case.


"It's never been my understanding that the step or shoulder exists to prevent a longer round from being chambered."

That's been my understanding for many years, that it was done in conjunction with the longer cases to make firing a more powerful cartridge difficult to impossible.

Let me do some surfing through my Jinks books when I have a chance.
 
We're saying the same thing on the 1917, I just used it as an example of an older Colt revolver without the step.

One very simple argument against the step being included in the .38 revolvers to prevent the longer .357 Mag round from chambering is that the step pre-dated the introduction of the .357 Magnum caliber by a number of years.

Exactly the same deal as with the .45 Colt/.454 Casull.
Denis
 
"One very simple argument against the step being included in the .38 revolvers to prevent the longer .357 Mag round from chambering is that the step pre-dated the introduction of the .357 Magnum caliber by a number of years."

Except that the step was concurrent with the introduction of the .38 Special, when S&W was also still manufacturing a number of revolvers in .38 Long Colt in hopes of obtaining government contracts.

As I noted above, the earliest Model of 1899s had straight bored cylinders, while the .38 LCs (the few) that were made after introduction of the .38 Special DID have a stepped chamber.



"We're saying the same thing on the 1917, I just used it as an example of an older Colt revolver without the step."

Yes, and I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make with that particular example. It was done for reasons entirely different than those revolvers firing rimmed cases and not dependent on the case mouth for headspacing.

As I noted, as well, in quite a few of its guns Colt maintained a stepless/shoulderless chamber well into the 1930s in some models and had no issues with bullet alignment.

But, thinking about this some more, it could well have been different manufacturing phisolophies between the two companies as to whether a tapered lead is used, or whether the entire chamber is just more carefully bored.

That said, though, in my experience the leade in the cylinder of a Smith & Wesson revolver should prevent a longer case from chambering without the case being hammered into the cylinder.

None of my S&W .38 Specials will accept a .357 Magnum, loaded or unloaded, not even the M&P Hand Ejector made in 1922-25 or thereabouts.
 
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Why then would the .44 Magnum have its step?
What longer round in a .44 caliber would that step prevent from chambering?


Why would the .22 LR have its step?
The .22 Mag already won't fit.

And so on.
Denis
 
You may have it backwards.
It has long been published that the .357 and .44 Magnums were made longer than Special to prevent the use of the higher pressure cartridges in weaker guns.

The "step" (Actually a short taper from chamber diameter to throat diameter, .09" long in .45 Colt.) was apparently devised by Smith & Wesson for the .44 Russian to go along with their newfangled inside case diameter, inside lubricated bullets. It did not take Colt and the US Army long to catch on, the .45 Colt was introduced like that, as were the Winchester-Colt carbine-pistol WCF rounds.

It seems strange to me that the .38 Long Colt/Government did not take advantage of that improvement with 16 years of experience.
Ten years later, S&W did it again with the .38 Special.

ETA
Why would the .22 LR have its step?
Click to expand...

Gee, MY .22 LR (a S&W Model 18) doesn't HAVE a "step." The cylinder is bored straight through, a LR cartridge will chamber from either end.
Why? Because .22 LR still has a heel bullet with bearing surface outside and the same diameter as the case. Like a BP .38 Long Colt or .44 American.
 
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Elgin Gates introduced the first .445 Super Mags in the early 1970s...

And, as I edited in, in thinking about it some more, the tapered leade is most likely for the purpose you've noted -- bullet alignment.

"Why would the .22 LR have its step?"

Really? You've never heard of the .22 Extra Long? Hasn't everyone heard of the .22 Extra Long? Geesh! :p

And no, I'm not BSing you. That's an actual cartridge.

Some people claim that S&W did chamber the .22 XL in some of its revolvers, but I've never found definitive proof of it.
 
And when the Peacemaker was introduced in 1873, with the step, there was certainly no longer .45-caliber round available for it to prevent chambering.

Cartridges & calibers that post-dated the step in a given caliber (as in bullet diameter) involving greater pressures were designed (in general) to make sure they wouldn't seat in "shorter" chambers, not the other way around.
Denis
 
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