So, I was at the local range today and I heard a guy say that Smith and Wesson was having a problem with their 500's. He said that rounds were "cooking-off" (i.e. going off without anyone pulling the trigger.) He said it was caused by too much gas buildup or something like that. Has anyone ever heard of this?
S+W 500 cooking-off?
- Thread starter clintpup
- Start date
Can you say BS? There were problems when they first came out, but it was traced down to shooters not prepared for the heavy recoil and actually pulling the trigger again as the revolver recoiled.
For a round to cook off the chamber it is in have to be extremely hot. Something that is extremely difficult to happen in a revolver held in your hand.
For a round to cook off the chamber it is in have to be extremely hot. Something that is extremely difficult to happen in a revolver held in your hand.
cortez kid
New member
Triple BS. I alway thought a cook-off was when the gun got so hot that the rnd went off from the heat. Usually found in closed bolt action machine guns or semi-rifles. I can't imagine anytime the .500 would get so hot or anyone that could get it that way. I have three. I've experienced a double fire in the 4", and three times where the cylinder turned in the 8". Each time I was sure it was trigger controll. Since I became aware of it, I haven't had any more occurances.
good shootin
kid
good shootin
kid
44hollowpoint
Inactive
I can confirm that.
My brother-in-law used to train troops in the Australian Army in the use of the Bren Gun (and hand grenades, but that's a different story).
Ken told me that several times after prolonged periods of training the chamber would get to the sort of temperature at which point the next round entering the chamber would cook off.
He said, you just held onto it until the mag ran dry.
I Think they were only 30 rounders so that wouldn't take too long.
My brother-in-law used to train troops in the Australian Army in the use of the Bren Gun (and hand grenades, but that's a different story).
Ken told me that several times after prolonged periods of training the chamber would get to the sort of temperature at which point the next round entering the chamber would cook off.
He said, you just held onto it until the mag ran dry.
I Think they were only 30 rounders so that wouldn't take too long.
Yeah, but in a revolver that would be hard, if not impossible to do.. simply can't fire fast enough..
Even with hot loads, just doesn't seem feasible. That, and if a round cooked off, you'd be in a world of hurt if it wasn't in the chamber aligned with the barrel...
Now, with Wolf Ammo in my SKS, doing rapid fire drills, I've had some double fires before. Have no idea what caused them, havn't worried about it. No other ammo has done it.
Even with hot loads, just doesn't seem feasible. That, and if a round cooked off, you'd be in a world of hurt if it wasn't in the chamber aligned with the barrel...
Now, with Wolf Ammo in my SKS, doing rapid fire drills, I've had some double fires before. Have no idea what caused them, havn't worried about it. No other ammo has done it.
stellarpod
New member
+1 on the BS
Total unsubstantiated, fabricated, ludicrous nonsense.
(any doubt how I feel about it?)
stellarpod
Total unsubstantiated, fabricated, ludicrous nonsense.
(any doubt how I feel about it?)
stellarpod
44hollowpoint
Inactive
BTW, I was agreeing to the BS rating and just saying that you need a long period of fullyauto fire to get a chamber to that temperature.
Whislt the .500 is impressive, I can't see it managing that.
I'm sure if this was posted on a physics forum somebody who knew the mass of the .500 cylinder and the thermal energy released per round and then the flash point of the primer or the actual propellant could tell us how many rounds in how long you would need.
But I second the opinion that I wouldn't like to be holding it when it finally happened...
Whislt the .500 is impressive, I can't see it managing that.
I'm sure if this was posted on a physics forum somebody who knew the mass of the .500 cylinder and the thermal energy released per round and then the flash point of the primer or the actual propellant could tell us how many rounds in how long you would need.
But I second the opinion that I wouldn't like to be holding it when it finally happened...
If it got that hot you probably couldnt hold it.........or you would feel the heat.
I remeber a day at the .50 cal range..we donned the asbestos gloves and loaded it in the back of the old Dodge 5/4 Ton pickup there were about three of us on the troop seats on each side. They were doing road work on Ft. Polk and our driver hit the mother of all bumps...the .50 cal became airborne...hehe. I was damned suprised at how soldiers could fit in small spaces on the troop seats...LOL
I remeber a day at the .50 cal range..we donned the asbestos gloves and loaded it in the back of the old Dodge 5/4 Ton pickup there were about three of us on the troop seats on each side. They were doing road work on Ft. Polk and our driver hit the mother of all bumps...the .50 cal became airborne...hehe. I was damned suprised at how soldiers could fit in small spaces on the troop seats...LOL
Jbar4Ranch
New member
There have been reports of the X-frame "doubling", which S&W says is due to the shooter pulling the trigger a second time on recoil, but I have a different explanation.
My first S&W .500 did the S&W shuffle, just as the N-frames have been chronically plagued with. The cylinder stop would disengage on recoil, and torque combined with the barrel twist would cause the frame to rotate backwards around the cylinder, bringing the previous chamber back under the hammer again. Many times I've seen "ghost" indents in fired primers too, so the hammer has a tendency to bounce on recoil. My theory is that with a fully loaded cylinder, the early .500's could do the S&W shuffle, the frame would rotate around the cylinder, and bring a live round back under the hammer. When this happens, an ill-timed hammer bounce could set off the previous round. This could only happen with the previous chamber loaded of course, which would normally mean a fully loaded cylinder. Theoretically, the reaction could continue until all five rounds had fired , but what are the odds of both the cylinder aligning perfectly with the hammer each time, and the hammer bouncing perfectly on each of the five primers every time?
I sent my first X-frame back to S&W for the backward rotating cylinder problem, and they sent it back a couple of weeks later with no corrective action, saying it tested within their parameters. I loaded it up, fired four rounds, and it locked up after the fourth round, leaving one loaded round in the cylinder. I couldn't cock it, nor could I open the crane. I emailed S&W about it, and recieved a personal call from Herb Belin about it that same afternoon. They sent a rep to my home the very next afternoon to take posession of the revolver and return it to the factory. About a month later, a brand new X-frame was delivered to my door by FedEx. The second one has functioned flawlessly through several hundred rounds now. The first one had the traditional color case hardened finish on the hammer and trigger, but the new one had a matte silver finish on both. All of the new X-frames I've seen since have had the matte silver hammer & trigger. My first two were/are 8 3/8" versions, and I've since purchased a four incher too, which has functioned perfectly from the start.
My first S&W .500 did the S&W shuffle, just as the N-frames have been chronically plagued with. The cylinder stop would disengage on recoil, and torque combined with the barrel twist would cause the frame to rotate backwards around the cylinder, bringing the previous chamber back under the hammer again. Many times I've seen "ghost" indents in fired primers too, so the hammer has a tendency to bounce on recoil. My theory is that with a fully loaded cylinder, the early .500's could do the S&W shuffle, the frame would rotate around the cylinder, and bring a live round back under the hammer. When this happens, an ill-timed hammer bounce could set off the previous round. This could only happen with the previous chamber loaded of course, which would normally mean a fully loaded cylinder. Theoretically, the reaction could continue until all five rounds had fired
, but what are the odds of both the cylinder aligning perfectly with the hammer each time, and the hammer bouncing perfectly on each of the five primers every time?I sent my first X-frame back to S&W for the backward rotating cylinder problem, and they sent it back a couple of weeks later with no corrective action, saying it tested within their parameters. I loaded it up, fired four rounds, and it locked up after the fourth round, leaving one loaded round in the cylinder. I couldn't cock it, nor could I open the crane. I emailed S&W about it, and recieved a personal call from Herb Belin about it that same afternoon. They sent a rep to my home the very next afternoon to take posession of the revolver and return it to the factory. About a month later, a brand new X-frame was delivered to my door by FedEx. The second one has functioned flawlessly through several hundred rounds now. The first one had the traditional color case hardened finish on the hammer and trigger, but the new one had a matte silver finish on both. All of the new X-frames I've seen since have had the matte silver hammer & trigger. My first two were/are 8 3/8" versions, and I've since purchased a four incher too, which has functioned perfectly from the start.
I've seen a video out there, may have it... let me look. *elevator music plays in the background* nope, must have lost it.
Anyways, it's a .mov file of a double on a S&W 500. Real simple to explain... with the porting, the flip is reduced and the force goes straight back. Unfortunately, it happens fast enough that you don't realize the gun has been moved enough to reset the trigger, and you're by reflex still pulling because to your brain, you haven't reached the end of the trigger travel yet. It's a function of how cushy the grip is and how cushy your hand and wrist are. So in essence you pull the trigger, gun fires, recoils, resets the trigger, while you're still pulling so a second shot goes, but you're already all compressed so you stay at the end of travel for the second shot.
Anyways, it's a .mov file of a double on a S&W 500. Real simple to explain... with the porting, the flip is reduced and the force goes straight back. Unfortunately, it happens fast enough that you don't realize the gun has been moved enough to reset the trigger, and you're by reflex still pulling because to your brain, you haven't reached the end of the trigger travel yet. It's a function of how cushy the grip is and how cushy your hand and wrist are. So in essence you pull the trigger, gun fires, recoils, resets the trigger, while you're still pulling so a second shot goes, but you're already all compressed so you stay at the end of travel for the second shot.
tanstaafl4y
New member
somewhat-off topic/thread jack
Heavy recoil, poorly crimped/seated bullets. Adjacnt cylinders firing simultanously. Critical failure.
*This happen infrequently with BP revolvers.
I know that that's not the "current topic" but discuss amongst yourselves.
Heavy recoil, poorly crimped/seated bullets. Adjacnt cylinders firing simultanously. Critical failure.
*This happen infrequently with BP revolvers.
I know that that's not the "current topic" but discuss amongst yourselves.
Jbar4Ranch
New member
I've owned three .500 X-frames, and fired two others. I find it very, very strange indeed that if the true cause of the doubling and/or the S&W shuffle is the shooter's fault, that it only happened with one out of the five. I have a "rather substantial" accumulection of handguns, including many, many S&W's, and my .500 is the only one I've ever experienced the shuffle with.
It's not the shooter's "fault", rather it is a condition caused by extreme recoil, especially in conjunction with very compressible grips. Wish I could find the link to the video. Basically what's happening is a "bump-fire" where the compression and decompression of the grip and the hand provide the forward "bump" to reset the trigger. It won't happen every time.