s&w 15-2
- Thread starter maccj5
- Start date
And his choice might reflect a certain reality: +P ammunition, as opposed to "standard velocity" ammunition, will result in accelerated "wear and tear" on any firearm, regardless of the material it's made of, be it carbon steel, stainless steel, poly-plastic or an aluminum alloy and regardless of the manner of construction, be it cast, forged or otherwise. There's no denying the laws of physics. In the absence of empirical data, how much a given firearm will tolerate the additional stresses imposed by the use of "enhanced" loads is open to speculation. And said speculation might well cause the user of a particular firearm to exercise a little prudence when it comes to deciding whether the benefits of more velocity than obtainable from standard loads is worth compromising the integrity of a given firearm over time. That's a decision only the owner of the gun can make. That decision then becomes "a basis in fact" and is his choice. A choice that, I, for one, would not beg to differ with.
The point I try to make (which nearly everybody misses) is that any discussion of +P harming a gun or accelerating the wear on a gun is predicated on the assumption that +P is a high power load. It is not. It is well below the standard pressure that the 38 Special was designed to operate with. Modern +P will not wear a gun any more than would standard ammo from the 1950s. We can't seem to get past the erroneous notion that current +P is high performance.
As for alloy guns, I think I noted in my paper I know a shooter who ran 1,000 factory +Ps through a S&W Model 12 (alloy frame) with no discernible effect to the gun. I get virulent disagreement from some quarters, but I still say +P is a mild load.
Do what you want. But +P concerns me not one whit.
As for alloy guns, I think I noted in my paper I know a shooter who ran 1,000 factory +Ps through a S&W Model 12 (alloy frame) with no discernible effect to the gun. I get virulent disagreement from some quarters, but I still say +P is a mild load.
Do what you want. But +P concerns me not one whit.
armsmaster270
New member
When I retired I bought my police issued 15-3 for $125.00 It had been digesting a steady diet of Dept. issue Federal 110gr +P+ JHP At the range we shot up all our issue ammo and new ammo was issued. My .38 is not loose & still has a good throat. Slight cutting of top strap.
Sac P.D. Federal ammo
CHP Winchester ammo
Cartridges that are commonly boosted with +P pressures are the 9 mm Luger, .45 ACP, and .38 Special, which are all cartridges that date from the early 20th century. There has been significant improvement in metallurgy and quality since the first guns in those calibers have been made, with the result that higher pressures are now safe in modern firearms. Many models will specify to the degree they can use +P ammunition; for example, many aluminum alloy framed .38 Special revolvers should not regularly be used with +P ammunition, for while the cylinder is capable of withstanding the pressures, the added force will increase wear and reduce the service life of the gun.
SAAMI specifications for common +P cartridges are as follows:
Cartridge
Standard pressure
+P pressure
Notes
...................Std.......+p
9 mm Luger 35,000 38,500 10% increase
.38 Special 17,000 18,500 9% increase
.45 ACP 21,000 23,000 9.5% increase
.38 Auto 26,500 36,500 38% increase to make .38 Super
.45 Colt 14,000 27,500 96.4% increase, For use in certain modern revolvers and lever rifles
.257 Roberts 54,000 58,000 7.5% increase
The +P+ designation is not currently used by the SAAMI, but is used by some manufacturers to designate loads that exceed the +P SAAMI specification. One source lists the 9 × 19 mm +P+ loading as having a pressure of 42,000 psi, an 18% increase over the standard pressure of 35,000 psi, and the .38 Special +P+ as 22,000, a 29% increase over the standard pressure.[5]
Small ammunition makers and reloading guides will often include special loads for specific purposes, such as the above listed .45 Colt load from Buffalo Bore Ammunition. These loads are generally designed to provide maximum performance from older cartridges, when used in newer, stronger firearms. The 14,000 psi limit for .45 Colt, for example, reflects the black powder performance of the round, and is safe even in firearms built in 1873, when the cartridge was introduced. Using modern, solid head brass in a Ruger Blackhawk revolver, a similar design originally chambered in the high pressure .44 Magnum, the pressure can be pushed far higher with no ill effects. However, since these loads, with nearly double the pressure, could destroy a firearm intended for black powder level loads, they are less commonly encountered.
Sac P.D. Federal ammo
CHP Winchester ammo
Cartridges that are commonly boosted with +P pressures are the 9 mm Luger, .45 ACP, and .38 Special, which are all cartridges that date from the early 20th century. There has been significant improvement in metallurgy and quality since the first guns in those calibers have been made, with the result that higher pressures are now safe in modern firearms. Many models will specify to the degree they can use +P ammunition; for example, many aluminum alloy framed .38 Special revolvers should not regularly be used with +P ammunition, for while the cylinder is capable of withstanding the pressures, the added force will increase wear and reduce the service life of the gun.
SAAMI specifications for common +P cartridges are as follows:
Cartridge
Standard pressure
+P pressure
Notes
...................Std.......+p
9 mm Luger 35,000 38,500 10% increase
.38 Special 17,000 18,500 9% increase
.45 ACP 21,000 23,000 9.5% increase
.38 Auto 26,500 36,500 38% increase to make .38 Super
.45 Colt 14,000 27,500 96.4% increase, For use in certain modern revolvers and lever rifles
.257 Roberts 54,000 58,000 7.5% increase
The +P+ designation is not currently used by the SAAMI, but is used by some manufacturers to designate loads that exceed the +P SAAMI specification. One source lists the 9 × 19 mm +P+ loading as having a pressure of 42,000 psi, an 18% increase over the standard pressure of 35,000 psi, and the .38 Special +P+ as 22,000, a 29% increase over the standard pressure.[5]
Small ammunition makers and reloading guides will often include special loads for specific purposes, such as the above listed .45 Colt load from Buffalo Bore Ammunition. These loads are generally designed to provide maximum performance from older cartridges, when used in newer, stronger firearms. The 14,000 psi limit for .45 Colt, for example, reflects the black powder performance of the round, and is safe even in firearms built in 1873, when the cartridge was introduced. Using modern, solid head brass in a Ruger Blackhawk revolver, a similar design originally chambered in the high pressure .44 Magnum, the pressure can be pushed far higher with no ill effects. However, since these loads, with nearly double the pressure, could destroy a firearm intended for black powder level loads, they are less commonly encountered.
Last edited:
Supposedly the magnum cylinders received "special" tempering but I have never seen this "special" treatment defined.
Note that in 1972 SAAMI reduced the max pressure on the 38 Special from 21,500 to 18,500. For over 70 years guns handled 21,5000 loads then they lowered the standards. Even at the lower figure current +P operates even lower at 17,500.
Note that in 1972 SAAMI reduced the max pressure on the 38 Special from 21,500 to 18,500. For over 70 years guns handled 21,5000 loads then they lowered the standards. Even at the lower figure current +P operates even lower at 17,500.
It seems to me that the disclaimers from the Federal Cartridge Company and Winchester-Western that armsmaster270 provided, along with the admonition from Smith & Wesson regarding the use of +P ammunition in their Model 12 alloy-framed revolver that I posted earlier, is more evidence that there is a difference in terms of pressure between "standard-velocity" and "high-velocity" +P ammunition. Everything else being equal, if the same weight and configuration of one bullet is pushed faster out of the same barrel than another bullet, something has changed in terms of pressure; that is, one cartridge has produced more (or less) pressure than the other, irregardless of whether current +P ammunition "is well below the standard pressure that the .38 Special was designed to operate with." Seems like simple physics to me.
I think that most of us agree, and a few of us have cited personal experience indicating so, that the limited use of +P ammunition in most revolvers chambered for the .38 Special cartridge will probably not cause any significant additional wear and can be done safely. But ignoring the manufacturer's specific warning against using "high-velocity +P" ammunition in a .38 Special revolver designed to fire only "standard-velocity" ammunition should be done at one's own peril.
I think that most of us agree, and a few of us have cited personal experience indicating so, that the limited use of +P ammunition in most revolvers chambered for the .38 Special cartridge will probably not cause any significant additional wear and can be done safely. But ignoring the manufacturer's specific warning against using "high-velocity +P" ammunition in a .38 Special revolver designed to fire only "standard-velocity" ammunition should be done at one's own peril.
Last year, I fired a couple cylinders of my favorite 38spl SD load, the Remington SWCHP +P 158gn through my Model 15-3.
Then I switched to the Aguila 158gn JHP, which is a standard 38spl load.
Muzzle blast and felt recoil were noticeably greater with the Aguila. Extraction was easy, and primers looked normal, so I am guessing that it is loaded to the high end of the pressure scale.
While there may be gun/ammo combinations which could be questionable, I maintain that an all steel K-frame made since the 1950's and in good condition is safe with any commercially made "+P" load found on the shelf of the LGS.
I wouldn't think twice about shooting any of it, and if I am using my Model 10 or 15 for SD, that is what is in it.
One of these days, I will splurge on the hot Buffalo Bore load I have read so much about...funny, over at the S&W forum, I have plenty of glowing reviews of that very hot load, plenty of guys shooting it...yet no reports of any damaged or worn guns, even though that load is hotter than just about any other 38spl load.
Then I switched to the Aguila 158gn JHP, which is a standard 38spl load.
Muzzle blast and felt recoil were noticeably greater with the Aguila. Extraction was easy, and primers looked normal, so I am guessing that it is loaded to the high end of the pressure scale.
While there may be gun/ammo combinations which could be questionable, I maintain that an all steel K-frame made since the 1950's and in good condition is safe with any commercially made "+P" load found on the shelf of the LGS.
I wouldn't think twice about shooting any of it, and if I am using my Model 10 or 15 for SD, that is what is in it.
One of these days, I will splurge on the hot Buffalo Bore load I have read so much about...funny, over at the S&W forum, I have plenty of glowing reviews of that very hot load, plenty of guys shooting it...yet no reports of any damaged or worn guns, even though that load is hotter than just about any other 38spl load.
oldgunsmith
New member
There have been a lot of 15's reamed to .357, usually (but not always) with no problems. S&W says it's the same steel, but .357 cylinders are stress tested differently. I never was comfortable with that operation, but .38 +P ammo wouldn't bother me a bit. Depending on what ammo you're used to, you might have to hold on a little tighter.
I wouldn't do a thing to hurt my Model 15...I like it too much!
And, after having owned a few 357's and shot the magnum quite a bit, I am perfectly happy with the 38spl for my needs...as long as it is loaded to its full potential. Weaker loads have their place. I had a blast shooting the old RNL 158gn load a couple weeks ago. It was accurate and easy recoiling.
But, I want a stiff +P for SD.
And, after having owned a few 357's and shot the magnum quite a bit, I am perfectly happy with the 38spl for my needs...as long as it is loaded to its full potential. Weaker loads have their place. I had a blast shooting the old RNL 158gn load a couple weeks ago. It was accurate and easy recoiling.
But, I want a stiff +P for SD.