s&w 15-2
- Thread starter maccj5
- Start date
Hmmmm.
The word we've most often seen around here is that unless specifically otherwise noted by model..., any Smith & Wesson revolver with an actual model number (post...1957?!) is rated for and safe with +P ammunition.
FWIW:
.38 Special SAAMI Max pressure is 17,000 PSI
.38 Special+P SAAMI Max pressure is 18,500 PSI
.357 Magnum SAAMI Max pressure is 35,000 PSI
Beware of ammo that bills itself as "+P+" (-NOT- built to ANY standard!)
I'd shoot +P ammo in that revolver to my heart's content, but I suppose I might think differently if it has some inherent nostalgic or personal sentimental value as a family heirloom or something of that nature.
The word we've most often seen around here is that unless specifically otherwise noted by model..., any Smith & Wesson revolver with an actual model number (post...1957?!) is rated for and safe with +P ammunition.
FWIW:
.38 Special SAAMI Max pressure is 17,000 PSI
.38 Special+P SAAMI Max pressure is 18,500 PSI
.357 Magnum SAAMI Max pressure is 35,000 PSI
Beware of ammo that bills itself as "+P+" (-NOT- built to ANY standard!)
I'd shoot +P ammo in that revolver to my heart's content, but I suppose I might think differently if it has some inherent nostalgic or personal sentimental value as a family heirloom or something of that nature.
There's not much danger in shooting modern 38+P loads in a K frame.
The whole +P red alert thing came from the days before SAAMI specs were created. Back in the 50s you could get high power 38 specials that was getting dangerously close to the 357 in power. They had all kinds of names such has 38 High Velocity, 38/44, and stuff like that. There's not much doubt that some of those crazy loads would scatter a non-heat treated cylinder.
Since there's still one box of that crazy hot ammo sitting in the dark dusty corner of some closed down Western Auto store Smith and Wesson is going to tell you not to fire +P ammo in that gun.
The whole +P red alert thing came from the days before SAAMI specs were created. Back in the 50s you could get high power 38 specials that was getting dangerously close to the 357 in power. They had all kinds of names such has 38 High Velocity, 38/44, and stuff like that. There's not much doubt that some of those crazy loads would scatter a non-heat treated cylinder.
Since there's still one box of that crazy hot ammo sitting in the dark dusty corner of some closed down Western Auto store Smith and Wesson is going to tell you not to fire +P ammo in that gun.
I worry almost as much about shooting P+ ammo in a Model 15, as I would about being hit by a steamship walking to my car this morning. Of course Smith and Wesson is going to tell you not to. If you read a modern owners manual, you'd get the impression it's not safe to actually fire the gun at all.
Besides...maybe they will convince someone to throw that dangerous, unsafe Model 15 away and buy a new S&W with +P stamped on it...
Not only do I shoot +P in my Model 15-3, I shoot the same load in my 1957 "Pre-Model 10"... In fact, that revolver, a birth year gun for me, is on my hip IWB right now, loaded with Remington +P SWCHP.
That is my number one load of choice in 38spl. My ammo locker also has some Winchester 125gn white box JHP and some PDX bonded JHP in 38spl, both +P.
Not only do I shoot +P in my Model 15-3, I shoot the same load in my 1957 "Pre-Model 10"... In fact, that revolver, a birth year gun for me, is on my hip IWB right now, loaded with Remington +P SWCHP.
That is my number one load of choice in 38spl. My ammo locker also has some Winchester 125gn white box JHP and some PDX bonded JHP in 38spl, both +P.
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I've been called crazy, a liar, a fool and many other things over the years because of my stance on +P. But if you're interested, here it is.
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html
This is my M&P shipped in 1942. It is pictured with the 500 rounds of Remington +P and some of the 600 rounds of my own +P+ (125 JHP at a clocked 1150 FPS) that I ran through it one week on a lark. As I expected, nothing happened. BTW- I ran some of those +P+s through an older small frame Rossi to see if it would be ruined. It wasn't.
I draw the line at 1930 because in my research I find that before then metallurgy was too imprecise to produce tempered steel with confidence. But even a pre-1930 probably wouldn't blink at current +P because it such a weak and puny load. C'mon, a 125 at 925 FPS? Anyone really consider this a hot load?
http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2009/01/p-phenomenon-by-saxonpig.html
This is my M&P shipped in 1942. It is pictured with the 500 rounds of Remington +P and some of the 600 rounds of my own +P+ (125 JHP at a clocked 1150 FPS) that I ran through it one week on a lark. As I expected, nothing happened. BTW- I ran some of those +P+s through an older small frame Rossi to see if it would be ruined. It wasn't.
I draw the line at 1930 because in my research I find that before then metallurgy was too imprecise to produce tempered steel with confidence. But even a pre-1930 probably wouldn't blink at current +P because it such a weak and puny load. C'mon, a 125 at 925 FPS? Anyone really consider this a hot load?
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Best heed Sevens' caveat. The owner's manual for my Smith Model 12 K-frame revolver included the following admonition:
"THIS REVOLVER WITH ITS FORGED ALUMINUM ALLOY FRAME IS DESIGNED FOR STANDARD-VELOCITY AMMUNITION. THERE ARE NOW HIGH-VELOCITY ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION IN THIS CALIBER ON THE MARKET IDENTIFIED BY A HEADSTAMP MARK "+P"; WE RECOMMEND THAT AMMUNITION SO HEADSTAMPED NOT BE USED IN THIS REVOLVER. SMITH & WESSON"
Well, Sevens, the Model 12 is a "Smith & Wesson revolver with an actual model number (post...1957!)" that is not "rated for and safe with +P ammunition" by the manufacturer. Many, many S&W revolvers have been discontinued over the years for whatever reason (mostly because, I'm pretty sure, they weren't selling enough of them to justify the continued making of them) but not because they were unsafe using +P ammunition.
I personally doubt that the limited/occasional use of +P ammunition in a Model 12 "Airweight" will have any deteriorative affect on it over time. But I thought it informative, if not prudent, to disclose Smith & Wesson's take on the matter, with the caution "user beware". I quoted your "caveat" because you seemed to imply that there might be "exceptions to the rule"-of which there seems to be at least one.
I personally doubt that the limited/occasional use of +P ammunition in a Model 12 "Airweight" will have any deteriorative affect on it over time. But I thought it informative, if not prudent, to disclose Smith & Wesson's take on the matter, with the caution "user beware". I quoted your "caveat" because you seemed to imply that there might be "exceptions to the rule"-of which there seems to be at least one.
Oh yes, I agree with you completely on that. Was merely pointing out that the Model 12 was really very NEW and different at the time because of it's construction materials. It wasn't simply a variation with a different barrel length or a different set of sights and was discontinued because of that. (such as, say, a Model 18)
I believe there is room for all the takes expressed here. There is room for what Smith & Wesson actually says, or what a S&W rep on the phone might actually say right now* (I have a whole OTHER opinion on that) and there's room for what real enthusiasts who own and love the guns actually do with them. This sort of discussion is part of what makes this a fantastic place.
(I have had discussion with "S&W reps" at some events and I feel quite comfortable putting that in quotes. I talked to a guy who was employed BY the company to represent them and frankly, it was a bad joke. He knew his current tupperware pistol line, and almost zero else. I attempted to discuss the 10mm chambered 3rd Gen pistols with him and I honestly believe he thought I was making it up. Clueless, and beyond, of the production history of the company paying him. And I was only talking about a model series that ran from 1990-94, not from something a hundred years previous) My point, I suppose, is that if you aren't talking to the correct person on the phone... I wouldn't take their advice on much of anything.
I believe there is room for all the takes expressed here. There is room for what Smith & Wesson actually says, or what a S&W rep on the phone might actually say right now* (I have a whole OTHER opinion on that) and there's room for what real enthusiasts who own and love the guns actually do with them. This sort of discussion is part of what makes this a fantastic place.
(I have had discussion with "S&W reps" at some events and I feel quite comfortable putting that in quotes. I talked to a guy who was employed BY the company to represent them and frankly, it was a bad joke. He knew his current tupperware pistol line, and almost zero else. I attempted to discuss the 10mm chambered 3rd Gen pistols with him and I honestly believe he thought I was making it up. Clueless, and beyond, of the production history of the company paying him. And I was only talking about a model series that ran from 1990-94, not from something a hundred years previous) My point, I suppose, is that if you aren't talking to the correct person on the phone... I wouldn't take their advice on much of anything.
Regarding the supposed expertise of some "S&W reps", I recall being at a gun store a couple of years ago when the business had a Smith representative on hand to answer questions from their customers and to demonstrate some of their recent products. I was looking at a used Model 4006 pistol the store was selling and I asked the rep what he knew about the pistol. The rep insisted that the Model 4006 was a dao configuration and, even after a store employee argued and demonstrated otherwise, the rep "stuck to his guns". Ever since that incident I became mindful of the imperative to take advice from only the "correct" person employed by Smith & Wesson-and whom that might be is entirely up to me to ascertain.
While in the first sentence of your post, my thought was "Wow, since we are geographically close, maybe this was the same S&W-clad turkey!" 
However, the fact that your guy recognized a 3rd Gen as a former Smith & Wesson product already vaults him well ahead of the guy that I chatted with... and chatted with for far too long.
Personally, I just think it's embarrassing to roll out a guy to represent a historic (iconic!) company such as Smith & Wesson, no matter at "what level" he's representing your company, when there is a better than average chance that half the people he'll run in to on that day will know his company far, far better than he will.
I believe that is reckless.
However, the fact that your guy recognized a 3rd Gen as a former Smith & Wesson product already vaults him well ahead of the guy that I chatted with... and chatted with for far too long.
Personally, I just think it's embarrassing to roll out a guy to represent a historic (iconic!) company such as Smith & Wesson, no matter at "what level" he's representing your company, when there is a better than average chance that half the people he'll run in to on that day will know his company far, far better than he will.
I believe that is reckless.
Actually, the store I was at when the afore-mentioned discussion took place was the Olde English gun shop in Tipp City, Ohio (a nice place to do business with, I might add). My usual (due to proximity and fine customer relation practices) gun stores I do business with is The Sportsman's Den in Shelby, Ohio and Fin Feather and Fur (the "Fin") in Ashland, Ohio. I recommend all three of these establishments to my fellow Buckeyes if inventory and good customer relationships are things that count for you.
I've also had good experiences with Vance's in Columbus, Ohio and they have an extensive inventory of firearms also (be sure and lock your doors when you park there, though...).
I've also had good experiences with Vance's in Columbus, Ohio and they have an extensive inventory of firearms also (be sure and lock your doors when you park there, though...).
The guy I'm talking about was at Sportsman's Den. Clueless. Nice guy, but should have been in another line of work. I blame Smith & Wesson, not the guy.
I've only been to Olde English once, and it was an extremely positive experience. Fully intend to return if/when I'm out that way, where I rarely go.
FFF is fantastic, but I don't -ever- speak about them on an open forum.
I've only been to Olde English once, and it was an extremely positive experience. Fully intend to return if/when I'm out that way, where I rarely go.
FFF is fantastic, but I don't -ever- speak about them on an open forum.
