Russian Flyover Takes Navy by Surprise.

Guys I know you are concerned over the stated military budget cuts, but I assure you we are still kicking.:D

I have posted a link to the USS Kitty Hawks official website, go there and read the Bio’s of the Commanding Officers, look at the level of experience you have running that boat. http://www.kittyhawk.navy.mil/main.html

Of special interest is the fact the Kitty Hawk is currently the only permanently forward-deployed Carrier we have, simply meaning its homeport is not in the USA. Its homeport is NAF Atsugi, Japan.

On an interesting note, the ship is also it is serving as the flagship for R. Adm. Robert F. Willard, Commander of Battle Force Seventh Fleet.
For the trivia buffs here this is the only time where a Captain can “out rank” an Admiral. How you ask?

Well the Captain is the “Skipper of the boat”, meaning its HIS boat. The Admiral is the Commander of the Battle Force meaning he tells the Captain where to go and when to go etc…

But when it comes to daily duties and the hows and why’s of just how the operations will be conducted during the execution of the Admirals orders the final authority will be on the Skippers shoulders. The Admiral must even stand and respect when the Officer of the Deck announces “Captains on the bridge”; because in the end it is HIS boat not the Admirals. The Admiral would be announced as “Commander Seventh on the bridge”.

And now you know…


Fast Eagle, never been announced on the bridge but been called on the bridge a few times…:eek:
 
Fast Eagle,

Maybe that practice ended in the late 80s, but earlier Russkies tended to jail their fliers returning from the West on the assumption that those pilots tried to defect.
 
Fast Eagle, that is interesting, but, with all due respect, I'm still very curious regarding the answers to my questions. You certainly don't owe me those answers, but I am very curious about this story.

Great bios don't assuage our concerns if the story is basically true. Clinton had a pretty good bio as well ... ;)

Regards from AZ
 
Fast Eagle, maybe you can answer a few questions....

As i read about this, I have to wonder where are the support ships? As far as i know, we do not send an aircraft carrier out without a few destroyers/frigates.
Wouldn't they do something to prevent the incoming planes?

Would a radar lock on the incoming planes be considered an act of war?
 
Fast Eagle, as a fellow sailor who worked for the Navy as a Russian linguist in the Pacific (as recently as 1998), I have some experience with Russian military forces in the region and the Navy's response.

For the Russian recon package to even reach the air defense zone of the carrier group with no prior warning requires some pretty massive foul-ups all on its own. The fact that the first notice the Captain had to launch the ALERT 30 was 40 minutes before the pass over could suggest that these massive foul-ups did indeed take place

Based on time between the first warning and the flyover by the FENCERS it sounds like the FENCERs were first picked up by picket ships who probably both announced and challenged the inbound aircraft.

The Captain may well have challenged the inbound aircraft or had his Tico light them up with AEGIS to let them know this wasn't going to be a free ride - but nowhere in my naval experience did we ever let foreign military aircraft penetrate the carrier group without an escort.

This is definitely not a an indicator of readiness in my mind and certainly not "a superb deployment" by any standard of the phrase that we would have defined it.

By the way, there is a thread in General indicating that the Kitty Hawk had been overflown on October 12th (five days before this incident) and again on November 9th. Both of the other times, the planes had a fighter escort - that suggests that the October 17th unescorted flyover was an "unplanned" event.

Another thing to consider - the carrier is operating in the Sea of Japan - a small and enclosed sea not far from a major Russian military presence - in fact, the Russians have their Pacific Fleet Headquarters on this same sea. A jet aircraft operating out of the Vladivostok area (like the FENCERs and FLANKERs) can cover a lot of ground in a short period of time. How many nautical miles can they cover in 30 min?

I think I would have to question the Captain's decision to have aircraft on ALERT 30 when foreign warplanes could go from wheels up to center of carrier group in that time. The only reasons I can see to do that are:

A) budgetary constraints
B) overwhelmingly optimistic reliance on intel or radar to provide sufficient advance warning.

[Edited by Bartholomew Roberts on 12-08-2000 at 12:55 PM]
 
Update from the “scuttlebutt” network.

It seems now that NAVAIR has dispatched a team of Investigators/Air Marshals to look into this. The report of Sailors contradicting the official count HAS peaked an interest of some on Capital Hill.



Jeff Thomas to answer your two questions.

The general consensus is no the story is not being correctly reported and to compound matters the Fleet Information Officer for Seventh is confirming that a “small” pool of civilian journalist are aboard the Kitty Hawk doing an annual Christmas at sea event for the Sailors.

As far as the causes of such a massive lapse in fleet security it’s almost unimaginable. The number of ship-borne radar’s that were cooking at the time would have been no less that 6, not to mention AWACS out of Kadena Air Base keeps a constant vigil over the entire Sea of Japan and well into the Koreas and Russia. Available to them is the 18th TFW at Kadena (F-15C’s). They have a ZULU Alert where two birds can be airborne in 3 to 5 minutes from the horn, 6 more pissed off Eagles can be airborne in roughly 12 minutes and the whole damn base can be breathing down Russia’s collar inside of two or four hours.
Also available to them is Yokota Air Base in Yokota, Japan home of the 5th Air Force.

What is puzzling me and why I am discounting the press report as inaccurate or incorrect has to do with the ship being unguarded while fueling underway? This is out right BS! I don’t care where you are, The Sea of Japan, The Black Sea or Lake Michigan. Regardless of what ship is fueling or resupplying the entire Battle Group provides a surface defense and the Air Wing is up ready to go not only for air but surface threats as well.


Opus1776 to answer your questions.

Yes there is support ships and there are stand alone such as guided missile frigates and fast attack destroyers not to mention any number of subs which may or may not be at, around, near or under the fleet during this time of vulnerability. We have hunter killer subs that not only can attack other ships and subs but airborne threats as well.

As for a radar lock being considered an act of war, it itself is not. Even firing upon a ship or aircraft is not an act of war it is merely an act of aggression punishable by a similar and equal response.

An act of war would be a threat of a high qualifications or an outright act of displacement such as massing thousands of troops on a country’s border or bombing the entire fleet with a nuke would be considered a localized act of war.

But that the President and Congress only make call. But in my eyes, if either told me that American citizens were in peril and we risked foreign troops on our lands, whipping up on the city dogcatcher would be an act of war.

All I need is just one good reason to commence flinging Mk 82 all over the place, just one…:D


Oleg Volk to answer you questions.

In time of peace we would have made positive visual of the inbound and let them know they were not welcomed. The only way we would have fired upon them would be in response of them firing first. As for preempting any attack they may facilitate all fighter pilots have been trained and versed in air combat maneuvering to thwart the adversary from acquiring the target and even firing the first shot.

It’s hard to hit what you’re aiming at when you’ve got a swarm of angry Hornets all over you. :D

If you saw the movie Top Gun you may remember the “jet wash” scene where one Tomcat flew infront of another and literally knocked his buddy out of the sky. Well that’s not entirely true, but wake turbulence is quite imposing and effective if you know how to employ it.

Bartholomew Roberts to answer your questions.

It is 640 miles from the Vladivostok area to Tokyo, at altitude a modern combat fighter could traverse that distance 30 to 40 minutes or so.

And I agree with you for them to reach the Carrier would take a massive foul up.

Fast Eagle
 
Bottom Line-

Russian attack aircraft overflew a USN CV without escort. Heads should roll.

Fast Eagle-
What weapon system onboard a USN sub is capable of attacking an airborne target? (really)
And- From what I understand from first hand knowledge, Yokota is a MAC base (screw those silly new designations) No fighting aircraft except transients.
 
Currently the standard missile deployed on most US Navy Warships was produced in two major types, the SM-1 MR/SM-2 (medium range) and the SM-2 (extended range). It is one of the most reliable in the Navy's inventory. Used against missiles, aircraft and ships, it first came into the fleet more than a decade ago. It replaced Terrier and Tartar missiles and is part of the weapons suit of more than 100 Navy ships. The SM-2 (MR) is a medium range defense weapon for Ticonderoga-class AEGIS cruisers, Arleigh Burke-class AEGIS destroyers, California and Virginia-class nuclear cruisers, Kidd-class destroyers with NTU conversions and Attack-class Submarines equipped with the MK-41 Vertical Launch System. Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates use the SM-1 MR. The SM-1 was initially operational in 1970 and the SM-2 was in service in 1981.



Specifications (SM-2 AER):

Manufacturer: General Dynamics, Raytheon
Weight:
Missile: 3,200 lbs.
Warhead: 25 lbs.
Length: 16 ft.
Diameter: 14 inches
Wingspan: 3.5 ft.
Guidance:
RIM66A-F, RIM-67D: semi-active RF-guided
RIM66M, RIM67A-C: semi-active radar-homing
Propulsion: EX-72 booster with Mk 104 dual-thrust solid-fuel rocket
Performance:
Speed: Mach 2+
Range: 104 miles
Warhead: conventional high-explosive controlled fragmentation


This system is in use aboard an unknown number of Subs but as closely guarded as the Submariners keep their secrets who knows...


Fast Eagle
 
Wow, I have read all the posts and see the points many of you have made. Especially Fast Eagle whom I respect alot. But the one problem I have is with the C.O. It seems to me that anytime (refueling would be one of those) where a "boat" is vulnerable, there not only should be but would be a CAP over it. This is just plain common sense. I don't care what the budget boys say, that CAP should have been in place during that period if not all the time.
 
I am familiar with the Standard missle system.
Interesting news about the VLS on attack subs. I've been out of the loop too long. Outside the pressure hull? Any ideas on how that affects dive depth? I would think the VLS would have to be considerably modified for structural strength.
I also think The sub would still have to go active to use the Standard, hence brodcasting it's presence and location. Not healthy. The Standard requires initial guidance.
I remember the Russians mounted SA-N-8s to some of their subs, but had problems getting them watertight.
 
Dave AA,

From what I have read and observed they are mounted forward the conning tower flush with the hull, meaning they are actually inside the boat just like the ballistic missile boats. I have seen a Los Angles Class boat in port and there was a series of “doors” just forward of the tower that were quite large. So I guess that may have been them.
As far as the controlling factors on operation and operational effects I like you are out of the loop on that one.

The closest I’ve actually come to sub operations was during service selections the week before I graduated OCS. I spent 2 days aboard a training vessel while in port but they were trying to sell me on the rationale I should spend the rest of my life 300 feet below the arctic ice caps instead of 30,000 feet above the ocean.
Trust me when I say the view from my office is much better…

Fast Eagle
 
Interesting.
Well, I wonder if the VLS is self-contained outside the pressure hull, or an intregal part like boomer tubes. Are the hatches square, like suface ship variants, or round like SSBN missle hatches?

An aside, I hear you can pick out the submariners in a room by their glow ;)
 
The hatches that I observed are square and the exterior most edges are rounded to conform to the camber of the edges of the top of the sub (not sure if it’s called the “deck” in Submariner lingo). If I had to guess a dimension I would say each was 4 maybe 6 feet across. It’s still hard to say if they were inside or outside of the main pressure vessel, even the boomer tubes are covered by an exterior door that’s forms to the outer hull.

Fast Eagle

PS they also sleep “under” their bunks and prefer the closet to the mess hall when ashore.
 
Fast Eagle thanks for the info, however a number of things trouble me.
1. As former Infantry and ADA I know the importance of security from air attack. I also know that the AEGIS cruisers as well as a few other of the radars in the fleet SHOULD have picked up something. Flying low to the water worked up till the late 70's, but the inclusion of cruise missles changed the Navy's choices and technological ability to protect itself.
2. If aircraft can fly "nape", and evade all of our high-tech (though even the Aegis is over a decade old technologically speaking...) than what is to stop another such attack?
3. Why would the Russians pull such a "stunt", getting "intel" on the make-up of our forces? ROFLMAO. That's what satellites and subs are for. I would imagine such an action is not only fool-hardy but stupid. Why play the "we can evade your radrs at any time" trumpcard if you don't have to?
The fact that such flyovers are not common is simply because they are directly linked to dangerous adventurism and the ability and perhaps the will of Russia to start a war with the idea of demoralizing our countries will to fight. I would imagine the "deconstruction" of the U.S. military and its service personnel over the last eight years has much to do with this.
4. Could it be that with the majority of people in the Navy who could of correctly handled the situation are either doing time behind a desk, retired or simply mustered out in disgust?
5. Perhaps the Russians got so close because either our radars were off, the CAP wasn't launched, and the CO was inacapable of handling the situation correctly...
6. Last question. Perhaps the most important. With the offcial end of the Cold War in 1991, and the Clinton/Gore presidency 92'-00' does this mean that are military in no longer capable of protecting itself? And therefore incapable of projecting power?

Jon
 
It seems to me that this fly over happened about
the same time Al Gore was on tv bragging about the
readiness of the American Military under the Clinton
Gore Administration.

This was a debate on CNN over the military
prepairedness issue around the time of the
Bush Gore debates.

The Russians watch CNN and I can just picture in
my mind some high ranking Russian Military
Officer watching Gore lie and bragg about the
US Military state of prepairedness in order
to get elected.

After 8 years of Clinton/Gore cut backs, base
closings and firings of military personell and not
replentishing or repairing our military equipment
the US Forces prepairedness is at an all time
low point.

I can easily picture in my mind that this high
ranking Russian Officer, seeing Gore lie and bragg
on CNN decieded to put the test to Gore's lie
by ordering the overflight of the Kitty Hawk just
to make Gore look bad. This russian was probably
ROTF-LHAS at Gore and the Kitty Hawk.

Did I say that I don't often believe in coincidences?
I pay more credulance to cause and effect.

I can picture this Russian watching Gore lie and
bragg about how America's military is the strongest
and best prepaired in the world and the russian
thinking to himself what a lier and @sshole this
Gore is and decieding to show the stupid Americans
a thing or two about the truth of affairs.

Hence the overflight of the Kitty Hawk caught with
its pants down. ROTFLHAO

I'm not saying that this is what really happened
but it possibly could have been this way.

Bottom line is our military prepairedness
S~CKS,REALLY BAD and the russians and chinese
know it.

We are falling out of super power catagory
into easy push over catagory and this decline
will continue under a Gore presidency.

Probably the only reason America has not already
been invaded is because the chinese realize that
80 million Americans own 122 million firearms
and that there would be a American civilian
with a rifle behind every rock and bush
sniping them if they tried to invade.

Add this fear to what is left of our unprepaired
military and it adds up to more grief that it is
worth for them.

China continues to build up its military while the
US Military continues its slide down the slippery
slope under Clinton/Gore and eventually comes a
time when the Chinese are more ready and we are
more unready and the odds look good for a
quick chinese victory.

If Bush / Chaney gets elected and rebuilds the US
Military, the Chinese invasion will never happen.

But if Gore gets elected, and continues Gore's policy
of non funding for the military, we could all be in
for a Chinese invasion of the USA.

Time will tell---No Fate But What WE make for ourselves
or allow others to make through our inaction.
 
Probably the only reason America has not already
been invaded is because the chinese realize that
80 million Americans own 122 million firearms
and that there would be a American civilian
with a rifle behind every rock and bush
sniping them if they tried to invade.
Click to expand...

Well, there's also the Pacific Ocean. ;) And the fact that we still have enough nuclear firepower to kill most of the ChiComs several times over.

Invading Taiwan would be much, much easier and they still haven't done that yet, so I'm not too concerned about the red hordes hitting the beaches in California. (Come to think of it though, if the PRC did take over California, what difference would it make? :) )
 
Remember what it was like when the soviet union still breathed.

We build weapons systems, they build weapons systems.
We stop building weapons systems, they keep building weapons systems.

Totalitarian gov't can do that sort of thing. The soviet system began to fail when the "masses" got a taste of freedom and what it could deliver. The TV show "Dallas" had a lot to do with the demise of USSR, not RFE.
 
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